[hd_fatboy1]

I have an '04 Fatboy that I just bought. Stock pipes and all. Just ordered Vance and Hines Staggered Big Shots and a Vance and Hines FuelPak. Will also be installing the Screaming Eagle intake filter system. One local Harley Dealer wanted $149.95 plus 1/2 hour labor at $58 per hour to remap the CPU. This seems obnoxiously high to me, just to change a CPU program? Anyway, my question is this. Would it be better to pay the H-D close to $200 bucks for the remap, or install the Vance and Hines FuelPak and do it myself? New to the remapping world. My last Harley was a '92 Softail Custom.

[Breeze]

Personally... I would go the do-it-yourself route. I haven't heard much yet about the V & H Fuelpak but I'm guessing it comes with full instructions on how to set it up. I know V & H has tech support but I have never had any experience with them. By doing it yourself you will probably learn several sessons along the way. You will have a better understanding of how things work and if they happen to later not work right you will better be able to understand how to correct it. I hear quite a bit about guys going to the dealer for a remap and having to go back several times to make it right. If you are not a wrencher and put more confidence in the HD mechanic then go that route.

[FLHTbiker]

So, how do you remape the Harley download or any download into the system yourself? I would like to be able to do that as well but what connections and programs do you need.

[Killer-B]

Ya Breeze, Give us the gift of 'some' of your programming knowledge. Share the wealth so to speak

[bikerjim1]

As Killer-B has expressed, there's more to programming than meets the eye. Really, the bottom line is, you've spent a lot of $'s on that bike so why take un-necessary risks on something that can be that critical? Programming a CPU is an art that should be tought before any attempt to "tackle". Just my 2 cents worth!

[CD]

Originally Posted by Breeze

Personally... I would go the do-it-yourself route. I haven't heard much yet about the V & H Fuelpak but I'm guessing it comes with full instructions on how to set it up. I know V & H has tech support but I have never had any experience with them. By doing it yourself you will probably learn several sessons along the way. You will have a better understanding of how things work and if they happen to later not work right you will better be able to understand how to correct it. I hear quite a bit about guys going to the dealer for a remap and having to go back several times to make it right. If you are not a wrencher and put more confidence in the HD mechanic then go that route.

I assume you mean the Harley Race Tuner? To my knowledge, there is no way to adjust any parameter on the Stage downloads.

[Seahag]

Originally Posted by hd_fatboy1

I have an '04 Fatboy that I just bought. Stock pipes and all. Just ordered Vance and Hines Staggered Big Shots and a Vance and Hines FuelPak. Will also be installing the Screaming Eagle intake filter system. One local Harley Dealer wanted $149.95 plus 1/2 hour labor at $58 per hour to remap the CPU. This seems obnoxiously high to me, just to change a CPU program? Anyway, my question is this. Would it be better to pay the H-D close to $200 bucks for the remap, or install the Vance and Hines FuelPak and do it myself? New to the remapping world. My last Harley was a '92 Softail Custom.

Don't let the dealer screw you! That $150.00 is just for a standard "reflash" to your ECU...which was calibrated for Screaming Eagle component builds and will likely be lean...requiring you to add fuel with the fuel pak anyway.

The fact is all you are doing is a stage I modification (air cleaner and pipes) and the stock timing that is programmed into the ECU will work perfectly with those mods....The only thing you have to do is add fuel to make up for the leaner condition due to your mods. Read the directions that go with the fuel pak, possibly ask some other users, or the V&H tech line, for a good starting point for your mods and you are set.

[Breeze]

Ditto to BikerJim1. I was able to reprogram our air/fuel ratio systems because we wrote the program... a big advantage when you want to modify software. All these maps are is a programed set of instructions based on a specific configuration. If you have the software to edit it AND know what to edit, downloading maps would no longer be necessary because you could edit the program and make your own changes to work with your bike. There is bound to be a computer geek out there that will take this challenge on. Maybe Dyno Jet and V & H will come up with software packages that will let the end user do all this...

As for me... I just change jets and needles!

[Seahag]

Originally Posted by Breeze

Ditto to BikerJim1. I was able to reprogram our air/fuel ratio systems because we wrote the program... a big advantage when you want to modify software. All these maps are is a programed set of instructions based on a specific configuration. If you have the software to edit it AND know what to edit, downloading maps would no longer be necessary because you could edit the program and make your own changes to work with your bike.

Is it just me, or am I missing something? He's not running a Race tuner or a Power Commander so there is no fiddling that he has to do with anything critical. He's talking about a stage I build with the stock ECU and using a V&H fuel pak which is basically a rebadged DFO from what I hear to add a bit of fuel. It doesn't play with any timing, and he doesn't need his timing messed with.

I've never played with a DFO, but from what I hear, there is three fuel "pots" or rotary switches for low, medium, and high jetting and you just dial in a bit more fuel than the stock mapped ECU has programmed. You guys are making it sound like he's a rookie trying to perform brain surgery

[Killer-B]

Relax Seahag. I may have gotten this thread a little off center and I apologize for that.
I was just trying to pick Breeze’s brain, as he said in another thread that he is an electrical engineer, and is familiar with reprogramming certain equipment, so, why not share some of the BASIC’s that perhaps we could benefit from.

[Seahag]

Originally Posted by Killer-B

Relax Seahag. I may have gotten this thread a little off center and I apologize for that.
I was just trying to pick Breeze’s brain, as he said in another thread that he is an electrical engineer, and is familiar with reprogramming certain equipment, so, why not share some of the BASIC’s that perhaps we could benefit from.

This whole thread has gotten confusing. Breeze's first post says "go for it...do it yourself"...and his second made it sound like he'd be tackling something very technical.

I'm just trying to get across to the original poster, that the HD reflash will likely not do a good job rejetting his bike, so he may as well put the $200.00 toward the DFO/fuelpak from the beginning and save his money. I think its criminal that HD dealers charge that kind of money to pull the side cover, plug in to the ECU with a laptop and upload a file that takes them five minutes. For the price they quoted this guy for a reflash, I got a full dyno tune of my carburated bike

I just hate seeing a guy get ripped off like that on something that is supposed to fix the problem, when I've read so many, many instances of the bike still running lean, popping, and generally running like crap. I think I've made my point though so I'll stop now.

I did some reading up on the Vance and Hines fuelpak...It sounds like a universal remote control. You look in the chart that comes with the product to find the type of exhaust (V&H) that you bought, then program in the 18 control points into the module for that exhaust...but the module can be tuned for further modifications using manual inputs. Heres a clip from the instruction manual:

The Fuelpak was designed to be a flexible tuning device and has the ability to increase and decrease the fuel delivery. If you modify your bike after the installation of the Fuelpak with products such as cams or increasing displacement, you must update your Fuelpak Setting.
New Fuelpak settings are continually being developed, if you do not find your specific application please visit vanceandhines.com to search for your new application. If you need further help you may email: tech@vanceandhines.com or call (562) 926-5291.

[Killer-B]

Oh, I do agree with ya Seahag, I was just seeing if Breeze wanted to step up to the plate.

Yes, it is very unfortunate that most Harley Stealers will try and suck what-ever money they can out of you, or tell you all kinds B.S. or even use scare tactics to get your buck.

I guess the day of honesty and ethics are gone for most of the Harley-Davidson dealers, I would like to think that there are still some good ones out there, but, I have not come across any in a long time.

[CD]

Originally Posted by Breeze

Ditto to BikerJim1. I was able to reprogram our air/fuel ratio systems because we wrote the program... a big advantage when you want to modify software. All these maps are is a programed set of instructions based on a specific configuration. If you have the software to edit it AND know what to edit, downloading maps would no longer be necessary because you could edit the program and make your own changes to work with your bike. There is bound to be a computer geek out there that will take this challenge on. Maybe DynoJet and V & H will come up with software packages that will let the end user do all this...

As for me... I just change jets and needles!

On what EFI was this? Was it a system that allows you to access the buss? Or, like the H-D EFI where you must have the code to get to the EPROM to begin with? There is no absolute need to download "maps" for a PC you can alter all cells within the software and save each revison separately. The SERT allows you to write your own maps just as it allows you to load canned maps.

[Breeze]

Your right Seahag, this has gotten out of control. Look at the original question..."Would it be better to pay the H-D close to $200 bucks for the remap, or install the Vance and Hines FuelPak and do it myself?"

I said do-it-yourself... nothing overly technical about that. The comments about remapping are coming out of another post.

[FLHTbiker]

Well, I broke down and did it. As I mentioned in another post I put my older Screaming Eagle pipes on my new 06 Ultra. Pipes were in really good shape and sound pretty good. They are the ones with no baffles in them. I put on the Harley air cleaner and went and did the download this afternoon. The HD service advisor told me that doing the download is only good for the air cleaner with stock pipes. Yep, I know that. He also said I needed a Race tuner and I said nope probably a power commander from CD in the future.
I'll run these pipes for awhile until winter is over and the inspection business picks up again. Darn feds raised interest rates again and now business is slowing a bit.
At least by doing the download if a PC would happen to go bad I can always disconnect it and fall back on the HD download. I don't think I can do that with the Race tuner.

[hd_fatboy1]

Geez, never expected so many responses! Thanks to all for your info, tips and shared knowledge. I just could not justify paying my Harley dealer $200 for a remap job. As a matter of fact, it miffed me that bad, that I changed my mind on the Screaming Eagle air intake and bought the Arlen Ness Big Sucker instead. The Staggered Big Shots and FuelPak arrived from Direct Parts on Monday and a friend and I installed everything last night. No issues on the Big Sucker installation. The only issue with the pipes is it definately goes easier with a helper. There was one issue with the FuelPak. Those little self-tapping screws to mount the unit to the spider bracket are a freaking bear to get in. Got two in opposite corners and called it a win! Bottom line was this. It took approx 40 minutes to install the FuelPak and program it. Took the bike for a short run (hey, it was 29 degrees out there) and there appeared to be no issues. Noticed no spitting, sputtering or popping of any kind. Gonna hit the 50's here today, so I will take the bike for a real ride and see how it works. One note on the FuelPak is that you CAN alter the fuel map to your liking. The mapping numbers V&H give you are what they came up with for your particular bike with their pipes and a hi-perf air intake. You can bump these numbers up or down anywhere along the curve. In other words, you can play with your fuel delivery anywhere along the fuel curve until your hearts content for a one time $249 purchase! BTW, a mechanic told me that the stock Delphi software continuously adjusts the bikes timing by monitoring the amount of fuel flow at any given moment, so there is no need to mess with the timing. Take that info for what it's worth because I do not know if it is correct or not, just passing along what he told me. Forgot to mention, the staggered Big Shots look and sound great on the FatBoy! Thanks again guys for all your help and comments.

[Breeze]

Glad to hear you did the deed without major glitches. I haven't heard much about the FuelPak yet but based on your comments, it sounds promising.
The wrencher is right about the system varying timing. The curve it is based on is probably on the conservative side to prevent engine ping and help meet EPA guidelines... not necessarily the best for power.

[CD]

Originally Posted by Breeze

The wrencher is right about the system varying timing. The curve it is based on is probably on the conservative side to prevent engine ping and help meet EPA guidelines... not necessarily the best for power.

That is true except the timing is adjusted in the ECU and the fuel pack, power commander etc, adjust fuel curve after the signal is sent to the injectors. So, if you have leaned out or richened up the mixture, the ecu doesn't have a clue and the timing is set for the fuel flow the ecu sent to the injectors.
That is the major advantage a PCIII or SERT has over fuel only tuners.

[Breeze]

I didn't want HD_Fatboy1 to think he had been short changed by buying the FuelPak but CD is right. The ECU is still varying timing based on how it is programmed. The FuelPak sends a "modified" fuel signal to the injectors that varies from the ECU signal depending on how you have set it. It allows you to adjust for increased flow from air filter and exhaust changes but you are not able to make ignition timing changes. This is similar to rejetting a carb engine and continuing to run the stock ignition... done all the time.

[rkoko164]

Hi all, I have a Dobeck DFO unit. It hooks up directly at the injectors and seems to work OK, I'm still playing with the adjustments. Does the V&H fuel pak hook up the same way?