[Grimmer]

I've got an '04 Softail Standard twin cam EFI. I've installed Harley's 95" kit - pistons, rings and jugs with the Screamin' Eagle HTCC CNC ported heads. Also the SE203 cam. Right now I'm running V&H's staggered big shots. I got a significant boost in torque and hp with the 95" kit, but I'm looking for a little more. I'd like to go to a 2 into 1 pipe. I'm considering Harley's new SE 2 into 1 with the tuneable discs, also the Pro-pipe and the Supertrapp. Any recommendations?

I'm also currently running the stock intake manifold and throttle body. I've been told that going to a larger throttle body and manifold likely wouldn't increase my torque or hp because the HTCC heads simply wouldn't flow any more air/fuel through them. I've also been told by someone else that the larger throttle body and manifold would indeed increase torque and hp. Any thoughts? If I go with the larger intake/throttle body, does Harley make one that will bolt up to the HTCC heads? I've been told two different things by two different shops. By the way, I've also installed Harley's race tuner kit and had the bike tuned on the dyno. . .

[Seahag]

Well if you got the HTCC domed pistons for 10.5 compression to go with the rest of your build, YOU'RE RUNNING THE WRONG CAM. You should be running something like the SE 251, Woods TW-5, Woods TW-6hg, or S&S 585. Those heads have very large valves in them (the ported ones even more so than the non-ported HTCC heads) which slows the input and exhaust gas velocity. What you want is a cam that will open that valve wide open to really fill the combustion chamber with a charge. The 203 cam only has .510" lift lobes. The Woods TW-6hg has a .590" lift and is made for a lot of low and mid range torque.

Another thing wrong with the 203 in a 10.5 compression build, is it has an early intake close, which helps build cylinder pressure for more torque down low....That is the same thing the added compression is for. When combined you make the cranking pressure in your cylinder very high and hard for the starter on a hot restart.

If you're dealer steered you to that cam/head combination, find another dealer that knows what they are doing.

Now if you bought the HTCC heads and stuck with flat top 95" pistons, you actually lowered your compression ratio which sacrificed your bottom end grunt. In either case it is a mismatched parts combination.

The April issue of American Iron magazine has a very detailed, but "dumbed-down" article on high performance parts matching in their techline section. By dumbed down, I refer to Donny Petersons ability to explain things so you don't have to be an engineer or professional wrench to understand him. He actually is detailing a build in which they use the HTCC heads and an S&S 585 cam. I highly recommend you read it.

[AZ05FXST]

Seahag, Thanks for suggesting the April issue of American Iron, I'll pick it up today. I am going to start saving now for a 95" upgrade and it is very important to me to get it right the first time. I have a TC88B and I think I've read some info on the forum that the balancer needs to be removed when stepping up to a 95". Is this true? Are there negative effects on reliability when doing this? I think I'm in a good position to do this, plenty of time to plan while saving. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on how much I'll need to do a top notch 95" upgrade, I don't want to half *** it. Thanks for all input.
RIDE ON!

[Seahag]

I think you were misinformed on the balancers needing to be removed for a 95" kit. I don't have a balanced motor myself, so I don't have direct knowledge of it, but I've been reading these tech forums online for four years and subscribing to magazines like American Iron for six years. In all that time, the only cases I've heard of people disabling the balancer systems, is when they were building a really BIG motor for drag racing applications.

You can do a really nice street build (if you turn your own wrenches) for about $900.00-1,000.00

Heres the breakdown of a great running street torque combination with a powerband of about 2300-5300 rpm:

$100.00 to have your stock jugs bored for 95" pistons.
$120.00 to purchase cast flattop pistons (with rings and pins)
$300.00 to have your heads cleaned up and port matched to your chosen cam from shops like http://www.bigboyzcycles.com/
$300.00 to purchase an Andrews TW-37B (chain drive) cam set with bearings. If you want to go gear drive version (TW-37G) figure about $250.00 more for the gears.
$90.00 for a complete top end gasket set.

This build, when combined with quality exhaust, a free flowing air cleaner, and a properly tuned fuel & timing system, will consistantly make 95-100 horse power and 100-105 lb-ft of torque....right where the street rider wants it most.

If you are fuel injected, you will need to figure in the cost of whichever EFI tuning system you wish for (power commander PC IIIr, Screaming Eagle Race Tuner, etc...). If carbed you can rejet and make some slight modifications to the stock carb to work well with a 95" motor. For better performance though, you may wish to go with a larger carb, like a 42-44mm Mikuni or reworked CV carb.

If you are incapable or just too scared to attempt a top end job like this, you'll have to shop around for a competent mechanic who hopefully won't rape you for labor like my local dealer does. Here they get $90.00/hr for labor and they use 'book' time instead of actual. An experienced mechanic will always be able to finish the work in less than book time as they figure the time based on what it takes a novice to accomplish.

I did my own build over the winter a couple years ago, with no experience whatsoever. I am not a mechanic by trade, but I have wrenched on bicycles, and tinkered with cars and motorcycles off and on all my life. Most importantly, you need to ask yourself if you are good at reading comprehension. If you can read and understand the factory service manual, it will guide you step by step through the processes. It is really much easier than you'd think....and the V-twin motor is a very primitive, basic motor. Tearing it down and putting it back together, will really clarify for you what makes these things go. You will then see how the lack of technology, has really made the V-twin a very reliable, almost bullet proof motor...there just isn't that much to them.

I encourage you to do as much research as possible before making any moves. Online resources can be found at sites like http://www.v-twinforums.com/ where direct parts is a sponsor, as well as http://groups.msn.com/harleytechtalk/tc88fathead.msnw and http://www.harleyarena.net/ ....and of course this site.

There are other sites out there as well I could mention; but they are more geared toward the social spectrum of the Harley community and have much less focus on the technical.

If you do go venturing the net outside of here, beware what you say about people on any particular forum. There are many, many people like myself, so insatiable for Harley knowledge and comraderie, that they belong to several sites and will burn you, if their friends don't do it first.

Happy Hunting.

[Grimmer]

Seahag, thanks for the info. I'll definitely pick up the American Iron mag.

The SE203 in my earlier email was a typo. I've actually got a SE204 cam in there. I suspect this may still be the wrong cam for the CNC ported heads. Maybe not the "wrong" cam, but perhaps not the best cam for what I'm looking to accomplist. My dealer recommended the 204 as a very streetable cam. I'm getting 90 hp and 96 torque, but I'm looking for more. Do you think that simply changing the cam to the SE251 would increase both? I realize I'd need a different fuel/air map. I'm really interested in low end torque, and am willing to sacrifice some top end to get it.

I do have the HTCC "domed" pistons and compression releases. I must say the bike runs great with the current set-up, and I really have no complaints. I'd just like to pick up another 10 or so in the torque department.

[hotroadking]

Grimmer
JMO the 204 is better than the 203 but not by much
it's reallly too mild a cam for any good step up

The 251 is a good cam but probably too much for your build I have a friend we put together a street combo for a 00 FHLRCI (Road King Classic)

The bike is turning 95 to 100 hp and 100+tq

Powercommander
CNC HD SE Heads
SE211 cams
SLip on WIld Pig mufflers
flat tops (I believe on the pistons)

Runs well no pinging and turns good numbers.

If you must stay in the HD SE realm the 211 would be a better cam much more like the TW37B

However I would agree the tw37B would be a better street cam overall, mostly due to valve timing which is more prone to lower end tq numbers wit the 37B.

[Grimmer]

Thanks Hotroadking.

If I went with the SE211, would you recommend upgrading my stock throttle body/intake? Would I gain much for the extra $$? I'm also going to a 2 into 1 collector system.

Also, you say the SE251 might be too much cam for my build. What would be the negative with going with the 251?

I'm just trying to finish this build right without having to redo it. Sounds like I'm already out the money for the 204 cam, but I'd like to avoid any other mistakes. . .

[Seahag]

HotRoadKing,

I think you may have read Grimmer's post a little too quickly and missed a couple points cuz I know you know your tech; but I can't agree with you on your cam selections.

Grimmer is the one running HTCC ported heads and domed pistons with 10.5 compression. You can ask the Andrews techs themselves, they do not recommend the TW-37 for compression exceeding 10 to1. The SE 211, while better, is still not taking advantage of the ported HTCC's capabilities very well.

While most performance street heads have bumped the intake valve size up to a 1.93", the HTCC intake is, I believe, 1.98". Since the velocity of the incoming charge will be slowing down, to compensate the valve should open higher. Thats why I recommended the cams I did; which seem to be the favorites of other HTCC users I've read about online.

I brought up the second build with the TW-37 because AZ05FXST was looking for an affordable build that would perform.

Here is a dyno chart of a 95" build with SE heads at 10.5 compression with the Woods TW-6hg.
http://www.woodcarbs.com/images/tc95tw6h-10.jpg

I know many people with the HTCC build go with the SE251 which has a .590" lift like the TW-6hg...SE if you want to keep it cheap and check your chain tensioners.

[AZ05FXST]

Seahag,
Thanks for your input. My motor is stock and carberated, I've replaced the air filter with a SE filter and installed V&H 2 in 1 pro pipe and had it rejetted and dyno tuned. It runs so much better than stock just doing what I've done. Reading and comprehending skills are good so I will do the work myself, getting the shop manual soon before I do my first oil change to syn..
I'm going to do the work since my first service experience at 1k miles was not a good one, had the full chrome kit put on the motor at the dealer while they were doing the 1k inspection, it leaked, took it back they fixed the leak, got it home checked the oil and it was a full quart low. Not to happy about that. I found a highly reccomened indy to do the tuning after I installed the pipe and air filter, they did a good job for a fair $.
I was thinking the 95" upgrade would be 1,500 to 1,800 and I can come up with that by the time it gets really hot so that might be a good time to jump in and get my feet wet. Thanks for the links, I'll keep my eyes and ears open and start planning now.

RIDE ON!!

[Grimmer]

Great info, Seahag. Thanks much.

Just so I'm clear, you recommend that I go with a cam like the SE251 with my HTCC CNC'd heads and domed pistons? With just that change, and a 2 into 1 pipe, do you think I'd notice a decent increase in hp and torque over my current SE204 cam and V&H staggered bigshots? I'd like to stay with SE parts so I can do the air/fuel mapping myself with the race tuner.

Also, should I change out the stock manifold/throttle body? Would that be necessary with the SE251 cam and/or worth the $$$?

[Seahag]

Originally Posted by Grimmer

Great info, Seahag. Thanks much.

Just so I'm clear, you recommend that I go with a cam like the SE251 with my HTCC CNC'd heads and domed pistons? With just that change, and a 2 into 1 pipe, do you think I'd notice a decent increase in hp and torque over my current SE204 cam and V&H staggered bigshots? I'd like to stay with SE parts so I can do the air/fuel mapping myself with the race tuner.

Also, should I change out the stock manifold/throttle body? Would that be necessary with the SE251 cam and/or worth the $$$?

I don't know much of anything about tuning with EFI; but it would seem to me if you can tune it for a SE 251, then you should be able to tune it for other cams as well. ...You do know that the race tuner is compatible with all aftermarket build combos right?

A 2 into 1 pipe will definately help also. The V&H bigshots are renowned for their great sound...not for their performance. I run the ProPipe on my bagger and it sounds and performs incredible IMO.

If you want to stick with a SE cam, I think the 251 is the best option for what you are looking for...low to midrange torque. I do not think you would be well served by spending the money on a larger throttle body. The extra air flow will only serve to help out your peak numbers, usually in the higher rpm, and mostly on the horse power side instead of torque. If you are still not satisfied with your power after a cam change, I recommend you look at more displacement...it will be a better use of the money you'd spend on a throttle body.

I know you want to do your own tuning too...but if you really want the utmost power your build can produce, there is no substitute for dyno tuning. I have seen literally dozens of before and after dyno charts where the dyno tuner was able to find 10-20 hp/tq that was there all along; just not being tapped. My own friend who runs an HTCC build (and is looking for a new cam) had his bike dyno tuned with the SE 203 cam he is currently running. The dyno tune with the SE Race Tuner netted him 12 hp and 15 lb-ft of torque over what the SE download/reflash. A professional tune is money well spent.

[Grimmer]

Thanks, Seahag. I do know that the race tuner works with aftermarket cams as well as SE parts. Harley has, however, included several maps their engineers have developed for different combinations of SE components. With the SE251 cam, there's a map already done that would match my build perfectly (heads, pistons, etc.), so that's why I was considering SE cams. I am worried, however, that the Harley engineers may be more concerned with emissions, etc., and therefore may not have developed the map for max hp/torque. I'll likely take your advice and spend the extra $150 to have a pro dyno it.

When installing the new cam I think I'll likely add the HTCC intake manifold kit, as it is made specifically for the heads I have and is only another $89. I'm thinking the new cam, manifold and 2 into 1 should give me something in the way of extra hp/torque.

Thanks for your help. If this isn't enough for me after the new cam, I'll seriously consider increased displacement for the next build. Thanks again.