[strickt9Rob]

Hey! guy's how's everyone doing? Well I have close to 2500 on the 120" Ultima. haven't done anything to it except change the oil. Took a ride up to Watervaliet, N.Y. JJ's Cycles Dyno nite. It pulled 96HP 113fp toruqe at the wheel. I was pretty happy with those #'s I'm really not looking for more, it's a handfull. the milage got a little better getting around 33 mpg. It's running real good. Seem's to like 2500 rpm's cruizin. I could more then likely tweak it, and get the milage a little better. But it's running so good I don't want to touch it. If I can put a few bucks together, "Americade" in Lake George, N.Y. is comming up . There's an exceptional tuner up there goes by, Dr. Dyno. I might have him tune it $250. a lot of scratch for a tune, but everyone I've talk to said, he's the guy? Thought I'd drop a line, hope this find's eveyone doing fine ......... Ride Safe!.......Strickt9Rob. Oh yea ,Hey! Art, the clutch was holding the whole run there was no spikeing on the graph .... THE REDLINE 75-90 !!!!!

[Art_NJr]

[COLOR="Navy"]Glad to hear all is well with the bke, strickt9Rob !! Clutch not slipping with 113 ft/lbs says it probably ain't gonna slip in the future either

Yeah, the dyno fee is a bit steep, but the operator is the key. Shops I've gone to charge by the hour & you could spend $250 there too, if you spent enough time.[/COLOR]

[Lucifer]

Glad to hear you're pleased with the Ultima and it's working well. Decent mileage for a 120". Not bad rear wheel numbers on it either . Once you see Dr. Dyno they'll prolly go up a bit more. No slippin on the stock clutch either eh, Guess Art knows a thing or two huh. After he explained the difference in syn oils on another thread , I'm thinkin about Red Line going in mine. Ride safe.

[strickt9Rob]

Well It's really not stock clutch it's a Kevlar set up with 20 % heavier spring but it's working well. Art ,steered me to the 75-90 Redline whitch before that, I thuoght it to be slipping ............All is good now....Ride Safe..strickt9Rob.

[hotroadking]

I know you're happy but

JMO

96Hp from a 120 CUI motor tells me somethings not right.

That bike ought to be 115 to 118 out of the box easy.

My buds 113 El Bruto pulls 125 HP and TQ.

Pipes, carb tune, filter, timing and clutch's ability to hold up to the power make the differences.

They say 6 speeds will drop about 10% off the dyno that would put you at 106 which is better. but it's still way off.

[Red Rider]

I'm with HRK on your current numbers, but....if you are gonna have Dr. Dyno tune it, make sure you know what you want it tuned for. If you want it as a cruiser, tell 'em so. If you want to be a red light racer, the same goes - ya have to say so. Otherwise, tuners tend to give you the most HP possible to make impressive numbers, but not necessarily in the power band that you'll be riding in.

I'm sensing that you are happy with the power (and no problem with that, as I'm happy with my measly TC88's power), so you may want to get it optimized for your regular riding. That 120 will still get you there quick even if you tune it for cruising.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by hotroadking

I know you're happy but

JMO

96Hp from a 120 CUI motor tells me somethings not right.

That bike ought to be 115 to 118 out of the box easy.

My buds 113 El Bruto pulls 125 HP and TQ.

Pipes, carb tune, filter, timing and clutch's ability to hold up to the power make the differences.

They say 6 speeds will drop about 10% off the dyno that would put you at 106 which is better. but it's still way off.

[COLOR="Navy"]One HP & ft/lb. torque per cubic inch is a good "yardstick" but it certainly depends on what the goal is. Stoplight-to-stoplight city riding, cruising around on country backroads, long trips on the interstate, etc. With respect to the 113" El Bruto, I got 167 HP / 125 ft/lbs from a 100" Sportster-based engine on gasoline with one carb & no nitrous, but that was for a Land-Speed-Record bike & that engine is "useless as teats on a boar hog" for street/road use. (Another bike in the works )

Yes, an overdrive trans will drop your dyno numbers & top speed both, but if keeping the rpms down & better fuel mileage is the goal, it doesn't matter. Another racer I know put a Baker 6-speed in his Sportster & it did have enough power to pull to redline in 6th (very few bikes do), but the bike still went faster in 5th (a tick over 167 mph). But again, if cruising down the interstate with a passenger & loaded saddlebags is the goal, that doesn't matter.

And to me, the dyno is merely a tool - yes you can learn a lot there & get pretty close to the ideal setup, but you'll always find a bit more in real-world testing. Having "bragging rights" with dyno numbers is one thing - what the bike does under the conditions it's actually run is another. [/COLOR]

[hotroadking]

That motor is rated by Ultima as 130HP 135TQ out of the box, so 96HP is 34HP below the average of the 120's being sold.

If the dyno runs were tuning then whomever tuned it doesn't know jack about tuning twin cams. Sorry JMO, you don't remove 30+HP and Tq from a motor and call it done.

My bet is that the clutch is still slipping, and the 96 hp is so far above the stock 50 ish hp it feels fastern you know what.

I'd like to see the dyno runs if you can scan them in, with AFR and there is a gear run that the operator can print out that should show if the clutch is slipping or not.

Between the clutch, pipes, tuning somethings way off.

Frankly you should be saying "HOley Friggging s$*#$T" not wow it runs good.

Then again that's JMO>

[paco]

hey everybody,

i am with HRK on the dyno run. My 107" Ultima isn't right in my opion either. I ran it on Tesse Dyno Drags about a month ago. Only made 86 Hp. i didn't get any torque numbers. I didn't look for 115 hp as reported by Ultima but I did look for maybe 100. anyway, i have something that's not right, even though i can run away from 96" and 103"s.

107" Ultima , Ultima 6 sp, Primo clutch, V&H pro Pipe, Mikuni 45 and Hi-flow ac, maybe i just need tuning, hope to do that shortly.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by paco

hey everybody,

i am with HRK on the dyno run. My 107" Ultima isn't right in my opion either. I ran it on Tesse Dyno Drags about a month ago. Only made 86 Hp. i didn't get any torque numbers. I didn't look for 115 hp as reported by Ultima but I did look for maybe 100. anyway, i have something that's not right, even though i can run away from 96" and 103"s.

107" Ultima , Ultima 6 sp, Primo clutch, V&H pro Pipe, Mikuni 45 and Hi-flow ac, maybe i just need tuning, hope to do that shortly.

[COLOR="Navy"]One thing I can tell you is the V&H Pro Pipe is a poor performer. I'm not a fan of a 2-1 pipe on a Harley to begin with, but after dyno tuning our Sportsters for Bonneville, a Twin Cam with a 95" kit was trailered in & it had that pipe. We were heading out so I don't know what the final results were, but I do know that just putting a set of duals & Cycle Shack type slip-on mufflers on picked up 13 HP right off - from 70 to 83.

2-1 pipes on a Harley engine only work in an rpm range about 1500 rpm wide, typically 3000-4500. I can explain why if you want, but unless you can convince God to change the laws of physics, that's a fact. And the 45 mm carb is too big for that application - a 42 would work better & actually you can pull 100 HP from a CV 40. I've also seen 121 HP on a 1200 Buell using a Mikuni 42.

I doubt if you're turning 7500 rpm & running wide open all the time & a carb big enough to do that makes the mixture velocity @ lower rpms too low. Both torque & throttle response @ lower rpms suffer when the carb is bigger than the engine needs. Bigger is not necessarily better [/COLOR]

[hotroadking]

Shoot Art I always thought the solution was more CAM BIGGER BETTER LOL

I can't tell what pipes Rob is running but if it's long shots or fishtails that probably is hurting.

On the other side of the 2-1 discussion I had a Thunderheader (sold it) and bassani Pro Street true dual stepped headers on the 116. The thunderheader outperformed the duals big time all through the power range. More TQ and HP everywhere.

I picked up a new E Series 2-1 to replace the thunderheader, haven't had it properly tuned but it works well, 24 disks and snuff r not cap on the end, I think the bassanis work well on the 124 after I had the heads worked up a bit.

Bud's 113 has posted the best numbers with A pro pipe, he has a supertrapp 2-1 on it now, quieter and made numbers close to the Pro Pipe.

True duals Samson Calibre with stepped headers and the larger baffles it was down 10 hp and tq from the 2-1.

FWIW my thunderheader made power from 2500 to 6k without a dip or drop, bent an L bracket and installed in the back of the pipe cured the dip and dropped 4 hp at the top but who cares with 135 on tap at the time

[paco]

i have probably done more damage to the power and torque numbers by changing to Rush dual slip ons and dual head pipes. i just got tired of the volume of the pro pipe. anyway i hope to get her tuned in the next few weeks and we will see which is the best on the 107. any comments on the rush slipons ? good , bad , indifferent ?

later...........

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by hotroadking

Shoot Art I always thought the solution was more CAM BIGGER BETTER LOL

I can't tell what pipes Rob is running but if it's long shots or fishtails that probably is hurting.

On the other side of the 2-1 discussion I had a Thunderheader (sold it) and bassani Pro Street true dual stepped headers on the 116. The thunderheader outperformed the duals big time all through the power range. More TQ and HP everywhere.

I picked up a new E Series 2-1 to replace the thunderheader, haven't had it properly tuned but it works well, 24 disks and snuff r not cap on the end, I think the bassanis work well on the 124 after I had the heads worked up a bit.

Bud's 113 has posted the best numbers with A pro pipe, he has a supertrapp 2-1 on it now, quieter and made numbers close to the Pro Pipe.

True duals Samson Calibre with stepped headers and the larger baffles it was down 10 hp and tq from the 2-1.

FWIW my thunderheader made power from 2500 to 6k without a dip or drop, bent an L bracket and installed in the back of the pipe cured the dip and dropped 4 hp at the top but who cares with 135 on tap at the time

[COLOR="Navy"]If top end HP is the only thing you're going for, then yes, more cam & bigger carb is the deal - how's about 167 HP & 180.025 mph on a Sportster? No fairing, no nitrous, one carb. And if you want to take the time to go thru the spreadsheets, you can see my good friend Crim's dyno charts here: The Sportster Home Page

Click on "Torque" or "Power" to see what different pipes did. Yes, the tests were done on Sportsters & there are several differences with a BT, such as Sportsters having 4 cams, but they're still 45-degree V-Twins & the same principles still apply. (BTW, Crim is the one who ran 180.025 mph on his Sportster with my engine stuck in it - 2 Bonneville records in 2001 & the East Coast Timing Assn. Championship in 2002).

With respect to Bassani exhaust & having been a manufacturing engineer, I know you have to go with a "one size fits all" deal for mass-produced parts. Darrell Bassani made the pipes for the #4007 bike you can see in my photos, using a combination of my design & his CAD-CAM technology which I don't have. I about fell out in the floor when he called me @ home to ask what I wanted for the specific application. Crim had asked Bassani Exhaust to contact me about the specifics of cam timing, valve sizes, etc.

And I have challenged any 2-1 pipe maker to come up with better systems than I've already got on 3 bikes - no takers. What we're dealing with is an "odd-fire" engine (firing order = 315-405) & an intake manifold common to both cylinders - carb or EFI. Look @ a 2-1 exhaust on a Harley & unwind the back pipe in your "mind's eye" to see if it'll be the same length as the front pipe - back pipe's longer, isn't it? And any time you add a bend to a pipe you increase the effective length of it, so the back pipe is even longer than it looks.

BUT - you can make the engine act like an "even-fire" engine using unequal pipe lengths so that the exhaust pulses hit the 2-1 collector @ even intervals & the exhaust coming from one cylinder helps mixture flow into the other. You can only do that in a narrow rpm range though - typically 1500 rpm wide. Take way to long to go into all this stuff & there are some "secrets" I won't give away, but you will never get a 2-1 system on a Harley to work as well as a 2-2 idle to redline.[/COLOR]

[hotroadking]

That dip is pretty easily tuned out on some pipes, with a thunderheader you bend over a tab in the back one at a time, do a pull and check usually two tabs and you're golden

Or an L bracket, which John Golden put in mine kicked the big dip right out, massive tq, a little quieter (if a thunderheader can be quiet) no loss of HP up top of any consequence maybe 1 or 3 total. and I don't ride at 6000 RPM so it doesn't matter on the street.

The E series and Supertrapp disk systems work great tune the dip right out of them and they make plenty of power.

My Thunderheader had a great curve from 2500 to 5500 then tq fell off but HP still gained, so I really haven't experienced that 1500 power limitation, on any 2-1 I've run on the BT's.

Then again on the street you spend most of the time between 2400 and 4500 RPM so that pipe would still make gobs of power in that range.

BTW that pipe was on my 95 inch tc, then the 116, everyone said it wouldn't work on the 116 yet it outperformed several pipe combinations. Same dyno same carb, same temps well pretty much the same temps.

Dyno operator was suprised as well when the Bassani's fell flat against the T-Header. Buddy has a 124 bagger with a custom 2-1 that has beat all comers on power and tq, it's a D&D Boarzilla header coupled to a supertrapp supermeg muffler and he's tested more pipes than I can think of on that bike.

Custom pipes would be great but we all dont' have the software to design them or we'd be buying pipe material, welders and collectors, mufflers and doing it ourselves. Racing is a different world demanding a different set of tools/components.


Paco that pro pipe is loud, that's why we put the supertrapp on the 113, sure made a difference in noise.

Rush mufflers fwIH are pretty good, one friend runs them on his stage 1 street glide with V&H duals but it's not been dyno'd.

[VYBR8ER]

The nice thing about the Rush mufflers is you can change out the baffles. They have sets from 1.5 inches to 2.5 inches in quarter inch intervals. Makes it easy to match the mufflers to any situation. As for the 2 into 1 headers, I have not found a better pipe for the street that performs under the circustances that most of us ride than the 2 into ones. They easily tune on the dyno for most street applications without any dips as long as there is proper backpressure to remove the torque dip from 1700 to 2500 rpm. Art, you are very correct about 2 into 2 applications on a drag bike, but that isn't what most people are trying to build for the street. A good performing engine that has a very flat A/F line across the board and more torque than HP to pull out from behind the trucks. Can't fault a 2 into 1 for those requirements.

[Art_NJr]

Custom pipes would be great but we all dont' have the software to design them or we'd be buying pipe material, welders and collectors, mufflers and doing it ourselves. Racing is a different world demanding a different set of tools/components.

[COLOR="Navy"]Certainly true, but the dyno charts I posted the link to are from street-legal Sportsters with stock cams - just testing different exhaust systems.[/COLOR]

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by VYBR8ER

Art, you are very correct about 2 into 2 applications on a drag bike, but that isn't what most people are trying to build for the street. A good performing engine that has a very flat A/F line across the board and more torque than HP to pull out from behind the trucks. Can't fault a 2 into 1 for those requirements.

[COLOR="Navy"]The race bikes I've dealt with & the one under construction now are for Land-Speed-Records, not drag-racing. Whole different ballgame.

But more importantly, for street/road use, a 2-2 system with crossver pipe & quality slip-ons will out-perform any 2-1 system there is idle to redline & that's a proven fact. And I challenge anyone to prove otherwise - have since 2001 & there have been no takers.

Yes, the 2-1 will have a surge of power in an rpm range about 1500 rpm wide, but fall off on the top end & have no torque down low. Again, look @ the dyno charts I posted the link to. BT engines are different than Sportsters in several respects, but the principles are the same.[/COLOR]

[strickt9Rob]

Hey! whats up guy's? HRK, I am running stait pipes, Samson Fishtails Thats where the most of the HP can be regained. I was suprised to have those #'s for just dropping the motor in there and not having done anything to it. Most of my riding is just cruising. Yes we play now and then and it's nice to have that HP and run away from those, who allways left me lagging before,but it's mostly just cruising. Maybe I'm just impressed because it like the difference between night and day.over the old 80". I'm not out to run down any crotch rocketts,or other big twins. I know the idea of big in. motors is to get as much out of them and maybe alittle more. To do that, I would first and foremost change exhaust,then tweaking the carb. Ultima's add say 130 HP 135lb's tourqe that's at the crank. I've heard they have consistantley been dialing them in around 120hp 120tq. All and All , I'm sure if and when I look for more, it can easily be found and had with this motor. Here's the Dyno sheet there's a little stumble in the excellerator pump. showed on the DYNO not when I ride it? Ride Safe....... later ....... strickt9Rob

[hotroadking]

I'd agree the pipes are killing you, what air cleaner are you running and what carb? I think they come with Miks now>?

If SNS a taller filter will help, SNS sells on with extensions to kick out the cover.

Be interesting to see the AFR line, if you go back have him print it out, if he put the sniffer in the pipes, also there is a graph that can help you see if the clutch is slipping or not, have him print that out as well.

A good set of 2-2 with HP+ slip ons would work, probaby need the ARIII stepped headers to make more power. of course I'd opt for a 2-1 on the street, sorry Art I still prefer them on the street motors,

At least you have something to screw around with and you can change pipes and pick up 30 HP LOL

I would bet 120/120 would be easily gained from that bike.

[hotroadking]

OK heres a 2-1 bike, looks like it's got more than 1500 RPM of power

But if you see it different I'm open to the idea...

I agree on a racing and drag bike big ol straight pipes, work well.

I do believe the eseries on my 124 is holding it back, the Bassani's feel better but that's a butt dyno, ears can't take the bassani's for long, nor can my neighbors LOL