[swampdragon]

OK, so here's the deal...

I have a 2001 Sporty 883. It's all stock and I want to do a Stage 1 conversion.

In the closet, I have a set of old Screaming Eagle2 slip fit mufflers in black, that I intend to use. They are still brand new and never been installed on anything.

I have been looking at the Doherty Power PACC air cleaner set up with power vents. (if somebody has a better suggestion, please let me know...I'm open to suggestions)

Thirdly, I'm interested in the Stage 1 carb tuner kit offered here.

Will these 3 items combined be a good upgrade combo?
Comments and suggestions wanted.

[kenfuzed]

The Doherty power pacc w/vent is good but a little overpriced in my opinion. You'll get the same performance out of an Arlen Ness Big Sucker kit and it already has a built-in breather.

Then you can spend your savings on some more chrome

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by kenfuzed

The Doherty power pacc w/vent is good but a little overpriced in my opinion. You'll get the same performance out of an Arlen Ness Big Sucker kit and it already has a built-in breather.

Then you can spend your savings on some more chrome

Does the NESS vent back into the carb, or outside in the air?
I've read mixed reviews about venting back into the carb?

[kenfuzed]

It vents back into the carb, but unless you are battling alot of oil blowing out the vents then its usually not a concern. If oil is a concern then the external vents might not be that great either since you can end up with oil down your leg. I've used both the SE and Ness kits for years with good results. In fact I still use a Big Sucker on my big bore Twin Cam.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by kenfuzed

It vents back into the carb, but unless you are battling alot of oil blowing out the vents then its usually not a concern. If oil is a concern then the external vents might not be that great either since you can end up with oil down your leg. I've used both the SE and Ness kits for years with good results. In fact I still use a Big Sucker on my big bore Twin Cam.

OK.

Right now, I don't have any oil blow problems. But after I redo the exhaust and carb and air cleaner...who knows?

I have friends with older Sporty's with Screaming Eagle air filters, and the oil probs are there now. Tricky subject I guess.

[swampdragon]

Oh yeah,

I was originally looking for a Screaming Eagle A/C for my 2001. But apparently, they aren't made any more?

[kenfuzed]

The new part number you should look for is 29066-03A which replaces 29041-88B for 88-03 Xl's. If you are looking for it online Eastern Performance has one listed here: HARLEY SCREAMIN EAGLE AIR CLEANER XL 88-03 29066-03A

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

OK.

Right now, I don't have any oil blow problems. But after I redo the exhaust and carb and air cleaner...who knows?

I have friends with older Sporty's with Screaming Eagle air filters, and the oil probs are there now. Tricky subject I guess.

"Blow-by" oil mist coming out the breathers into the air-cleaner is more pronounced with the SE setup over stock & gets worse over time as the cylinders wear. An irritation for some, a problem for others - most just wipe out the "ham-can" with a paper towel periodically.

But you can vent the head-breathers elsewhere & there are several ways to do it, the most common being a chrome horseshoe shaped tube that you can run a section of rubber hose from & most often to a little "puke can" to catch any oil. H-D doesn't sell one for Sportsters, but the aftermarket does. You'll also need a carb support bracket (aftermarket) since the stock head-breather setup & the A/C backing plate are the carb support. You can still use the SE backing plate, just block off the holes for the original head-breather setup.

As to things like KrankVent, Power Vent, etc., they're just expensive "umbrella" valves & the rocker boxes already have them inside. Not the greatest design in the world, but the additional vents work the same way & there's no power increase. Here's a detailed article about that:
NRHS - High Performance for your Harley Twin Cam, Evolution, Sportster or Buell!

[Art_NJr]

I didn't answer your original questions about the SE slip-ons & carb kit. The SE II's are very popular & should do a fine job for you - they flow WAY more than the stock mufflers. They don't flow as much on the top end as the older SE I's ("obsoleted") I've got or the also popular Cycle Shack slip-ons, but they're not as loud either & frankly, the SE I's start to get on my nerves after an hour or so.

I've looked @ that carb kit & it does the same thing good tuners have been doing for years. The carb needle in '91-'03 Sportsters has always been a problem & the most common symptom is the "carb farts". The one in the kit appears to be very similar to the old N65C that came in 1988 Sportsters that didn't have an accelerator pump. That one's been used for ages to smooth out the low end, which is where the main problems are - you see it on dyno charts usually in the 2500 rpm range, when the A/F mixture spikes & goes way lean.

Replacing the stock needle takes care of that & is far better than the old way of going up from a 42 slow to a 45 - that turns the spike into a bump & the "seat of the pants dyno" says the problem's gone, but it's not & makes the low end too rich, which causes more problems, including fouled plugs & gas in the oil in the worst cases.

Baseline jetting for your 883 is 42 slow & 165 main - don't know what jets come in the kit, but your bike came with a 42 slow & 160 main. Baseline on the idle mixture screw is 2.5 turns out & you shouldn't have to go more than 1/4 turn either way from there. But you want to make your adjustments when the engine's fully warmed up.

The slide spring is no doubt a bit lighter & the slide will move a little quicker for better throttle response - but you don't want it moving too quick or it'll "hunt" going down the road. I've used a lighter spring in one application, but not in 2 others & the whole idea behind the CV (constant velocity) carb is to keep the speed of the incoming air the same all the time even though the volume changes with throttle position.

The CV does a pretty good job of that too & will adjust itself to altitude changes - as the air density changes, so does the slide position. But if the slide moves too fast it'll go up too far, then overcorrect by going down too far, always trying to find the right spot, but it never does. And since the needle moves with the slide & controls how much fuel can come out the main jet, not only does the air velocity change, so does the A/F ratio. So don't go drilling on the slide or get one of those "Thunderslide" deals.

What you're doing is what we call "Paying the Harley Tax" by increasing intake & exhaust flow then getting the carb fine-tuned so the engine can breathe - which it can't from the factory. And you don't need to be a "rocket scientist" to do it - very straightfoward - quality slip-on mufflers, improved air-cleaner, one size up on the main jet, replace the carb needle & get the idle mixture dialed in. You're done. And the CV carb is a "set it & forget it" deal - once you've got it dialed in, you don't need to keep messing with it.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

I didn't answer your original questions about the SE slip-ons & carb kit. The SE II's are very popular & should do a fine job for you - they flow WAY more than the stock mufflers. They don't flow as much on the top end as the older SE I's ("obsoleted") I've got or the also popular Cycle Shack slip-ons, but they're not as loud either & frankly, the SE I's start to get on my nerves after an hour or so.

I've looked @ that carb kit & it does the same thing good tuners have been doing for years. The carb needle in '91-'03 Sportsters has always been a problem & the most common symptom is the "carb farts". The one in the kit appears to be very similar to the old N65C that came in 1988 Sportsters that didn't have an accelerator pump. That one's been used for ages to smooth out the low end, which is where the main problems are - you see it on dyno charts usually in the 2500 rpm range, when the A/F mixture spikes & goes way lean.


Replacing the stock needle takes care of that & is far better than the old way of going up from a 42 slow to a 45 - that turns the spike into a bump & the "seat of the pants dyno" says the problem's gone, but it's not & makes the low end too rich, which causes more problems, including fouled plugs & gas in the oil in the worst cases.

Baseline jetting for your 883 is 42 slow & 165 main - don't know what jets come in the kit, but your bike came with a 42 slow & 160 main. Baseline on the idle mixture screw is 2.5 turns out & you shouldn't have to go more than 1/4 turn either way from there. But you want to make your adjustments when the engine's fully warmed up.

The slide spring is no doubt a bit lighter & the slide will move a little quicker for better throttle response - but you don't want it moving too quick or it'll "hunt" going down the road. I've used a lighter spring in one application, but not in 2 others & the whole idea behind the CV (constant velocity) carb is to keep the speed of the incoming air the same all the time even though the volume changes with throttle position.

The CV does a pretty good job of that too & will adjust itself to altitude changes - as the air density changes, so does the slide position. But if the slide moves too fast it'll go up too far, then overcorrect by going down too far, always trying to find the right spot, but it never does. And since the needle moves with the slide & controls how much fuel can come out the main jet, not only does the air velocity change, so does the A/F ratio. So don't go drilling on the slide or get one of those "Thunderslide" deals.

What you're doing is what we call "Paying the Harley Tax" by increasing intake & exhaust flow then getting the carb fine-tuned so the engine can breathe - which it can't from the factory. And you don't need to be a "rocket scientist" to do it - very straightfoward - quality slip-on mufflers, improved air-cleaner, one size up on the main jet, replace the carb needle & get the idle mixture dialed in. You're done. And the CV carb is a "set it & forget it" deal - once you've got it dialed in, you don't need to keep messing with it.

That was quite a detailed post. Thank you!

So I am assuming, based off what you just said, that the common idea of switching the stock jets #42 and #160 with new #45 and #170 is for those who've not changed out the needle at all then. Funny you don't hear too much about the needle like you do the jets.

Interesting. You're saying don't mess with the #42 jet at all. This is new to me. I wonder why the kit comes with a needle and four new jets then? Confusing.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

That was quite a detailed post. Thank you!

So I am assuming, based off what you just said, that the common idea of switching the stock jets #42 and #160 with new #45 and #170 is for those who've not changed out the needle at all then. Funny you don't hear too much about the needle like you do the jets.

Interesting. You're saying don't mess with the #42 jet at all. This is new to me. I wonder why the kit comes with a needle and four new jets then? Confusing.

The needle is the problem, but you can drown out the symptoms with bigger jets. Still doesn't solve the problem. You nearly always need a larger main jet though & I would have to assume the kit comes with 4 jets so you've got more to work with. And, you can take 2 bikes that appear to be identical & find out that one runs better with this setup over that - they'll be very close, but the ideal setup won't be identical.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

The needle is the problem, but you can drown out the symptoms with bigger jets. Still doesn't solve the problem. You nearly always need a larger main jet though & I would have to assume the kit comes with 4 jets so you've got more to work with. And, you can take 2 bikes that appear to be identical & find out that one runs better with this setup over that - they'll be very close, but the ideal setup won't be identical.

All bikes don't run the same. That's true for sure. I wish I knew more about this kit.

[kenfuzed]

As always Art, very good points.

I'd like to address a few areas as they relate to this kit.

Needle: As Art mentioned the N65C needle has been used for years to smooth out and richen the lower off-idle portion of the midrange circuit. While it has worked far better than adding a bunch of washer under the needle its always been a bandaide at best. The needles made for HD and the CV carb over the years have always been made to meet a specific stock need and not for increased performance when matched with aftermarket exhausts or aircleaners. Trying to match any of the dozens of stock needles with a free breathing configuration is a compomise and only a few with the perfect setup will nail it on the head. DynoJet has sold adjustable needles using clips and washers for years similar to those used on dirt bikes. The trouble I've always seen with those is every move of the clip completely alters the location of the taper, so while fixing one thing you can end up going too rich at idle or losing gas mileage. It works great on dirt bikes, but then again thats an area where nobody really cares about fuel economy or street rideability.

All of this led me to develop my own needle. After 4 years testing 307 different tapers and profiles I finally found a stable design that delivers the best of most riding situations without having to overcompensate with different jets. The design also addressed another problem I discovered with Keihin needles, which is they are all made using a hollow 2 piece process. I found that of a sampling of 200 N65C needles purchased from different batches there were variances in size and distortions in the tapered steps. Therefore I designed my needle using solid billet (7075-T651 aluminum) followed with a mil-spec hard anodized coating. Each needle is milled on a Swiss CNC machine rather than being made from a mold.

It was also mentioned about the spring. The stock spring tends to be too stiff while the aftermarket SE and DJ springs don't provide enough tension to prevent slide bounce or slide "searching". I had a spring manufactured for me that falls somewhere between the stock and SE spring to strike a balance between a quicker throttle and controlled slide action during deceleration.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by kenfuzed

As always Art, very good points.

I'd like to address a few areas as they relate to this kit.

Needle: As Art mentioned the N65C needle has been used for years to smooth out and richen the lower off-idle portion of the midrange circuit. While it has worked far better than adding a bunch of washer under the needle its always been a bandaide at best. The needles made for HD and the CV carb over the years have always been made to meet a specific stock need and not for increased performance when matched with aftermarket exhausts or aircleaners. Trying to match any of the dozens of stock needles with a free breathing configuration is a compomise and only a few with the perfect setup will nail it on the head. DynoJet has sold adjustable needles using clips and washers for years similar to those used on dirt bikes. The trouble I've always seen with those is every move of the clip completely alters the location of the taper, so while fixing one thing you can end up going too rich at idle or losing gas mileage. It works great on dirt bikes, but then again thats an area where nobody really cares about fuel economy or street rideability.

All of this led me to develop my own needle. After 4 years testing 307 different tapers and profiles I finally found a stable design that delivers the best of most riding situations without having to overcompensate with different jets. The design also addressed another problem I discovered with Keihin needles, which is they are all made using a hollow 2 piece process. I found that of a sampling of 200 N65C needles purchased from different batches there were variances in size and distortions in the tapered steps. Therefore I designed my needle using solid billet (7075-T651 aluminum) followed with a mil-spec hard anodized coating. Each needle is milled on a Swiss CNC machine rather than being made from a mold.

It was also mentioned about the spring. The stock spring tends to be too stiff while the aftermarket SE and DJ springs don't provide enough tension to prevent slide bounce or slide "searching". I had a spring manufactured for me that falls somewhere between the stock and SE spring to strike a balance between a quicker throttle and controlled slide action during deceleration.

You have my attention Sir.

My question would be then, just based on your post, if your needle is designed to give the best performance without having to overcompensate with jets...then why does the kit come with jets as well?

I'm not trying to be a punk or anything...I'm just trying to learn.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by kenfuzed

The new part number you should look for is 29066-03A which replaces 29041-88B for 88-03 Xl's. If you are looking for it online Eastern Performance has one listed here: HARLEY SCREAMIN EAGLE AIR CLEANER XL 88-03 29066-03A

The older #29041-88B is the one that used the K&N filter right? The new one does not?

[Boon]

Interesting bit about the washers "solution"... Good info, thx.

I've read about drilling some hole larger on the carb, maybe for the needle, I'm not sure. I would like to know more. Does this kit require drilling the carb? How can I tell if a carb had already been drilled?

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by Boon

Interesting bit about the washers "solution"... Good info, thx.

I've read about drilling some hole larger on the carb, maybe for the needle, I'm not sure. I would like to know more. Does this kit require drilling the carb? How can I tell if a carb had already been drilled?

Go get the factory service manual for your bike. The real one. I almost never go to a H-D dealer, but for that I sure will & it certainly is worth the expense.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

Go get the factory service manual for your bike. The real one. I almost never go to a H-D dealer, but for that I sure will & it certainly is worth the expense.

I have the service manual for my bike already. The thing that pisses me off is that it only names parts by name. It does not list them by part number! That sucks ass.

[kenfuzed]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

You have my attention Sir.

My question would be then, just based on your post, if your needle is designed to give the best performance without having to overcompensate with jets...then why does the kit come with jets as well?

I'm not trying to be a punk or anything...I'm just trying to learn.

The kit comes with jets since many carbs either have the wrong jets installed or need the option of switching jets with different pipes/air cleaners. The kit includes one set of jets for a stock setup and another for a bike with free breathing pipes and intake. The jets here aren't meant to overcompensate but instead compliment the needle and custom emulsion tube (another piece I spent some years in R&D).

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by kenfuzed

The kit comes with jets since many carbs either have the wrong jets installed or need the option of switching jets with different pipes/air cleaners. The kit includes one set of jets for a stock setup and another for a bike with free breathing pipes and intake. The jets here aren't meant to overcompensate but instead compliment the needle and custom emulsion tube (another piece I spent some years in R&D).

That makes sense.

But what if I only need what I need for a high flow A/C and high flow exhaust set up? I already have a stock set up. That is why I want to convert to stage 1.
If I buy the kit, am I re-buying what I already have to begin with in the stock set up I already have? That kinda doesn't make sense to call the kit a Stage 1 Kit if it still contains the same stock parts as well. I don't get it?

I don't need to buy again what I already have just to get the additional parts that I "do" need. Is there no middle ground here?