[Tomflhrci98]

I've been playing around with a wideband O2 meter that I strapped to my bike a week ago. These things go for anywhere between $250 and $350. I got an O2 bung welded onto my pipe a few inches past the collector on the right side (stock pipes) for $20 at a local muffler place.

What I've been doing is riding around at normal speeds and watching where my A/F is. This canned PC3 map that I have is way too rich in those normal driving areas such as 40% to 60% throt and 2,000 to 3,000rpm. I had to fiqure out my engine rpm vs mph since I don't have a tach.

I am working the PC3 map so that I get 14.7 : 1 A/F ratio +/- 5% in all these areas. I think this will increase my mpg by at least 5 from what I notice in the tank so far. (I am hoping for 48mpg) I haven't worked the 70% to 100% throttle area yet because I'm still breaking in new rings. In that throttle area I am going to try and acheive no more than 12 : 1 A/F for acceleration. I don't think I need more than that.

I decided to get one of these wideband O2 meters instead of dyno tuning because I just wanted to know for myself what is really happening. And it is kind of fun and it gets you out riding instead of having someone else beating on your bike on a dyno and doing god know what.

My suggestion is for a group of riders to go in for one of these and each one take a few weeks and work on your A/F for best results. Than the cost would be worth it in the gas savings. Carb guys can use it too.

[hotroadking]

Tom
That is what we did a bunch of guys spit the cost the full Daytona Twin tech, net net net about $150 each cheaper than all the dynos to get it right

FWIW I would shoot for 14.2 in the ranges you cruise, 14.7 is too lean JMO that's epa lean and not good, motor runs hot, sometimes a bit more fuel is better.

Set the 14.2 from 30% throttle and down and from 3200 or 3500 RPM and down so the lower throttle position and RPM of the grid is all 14.2 and then go out and run

You should setup the higher RPM and throttle positions in the mid to low 13's

More power at 80% and up you want to start rich maybe 12.6 and lean it out a little as you raise up through power to higher rpm but not over 13.2 in the higher of the higher ranges.

[Tomflhrci98]

HRK,

Thanks. Some of this is a bit of guess work and that's where a dyno has it's value, but we can't have everything in the garage.

I agree that I am trying to bias the "normal" running areas to richer than 14.7 just to be on the safe side. And that is good information about the higher rpms that I had not thought of.

The meter I have only displays led lights that aren't that high of resolution to see it more accurate than +/- 5% from 14.7 but it is good enough and I found that I used to run about 10.5 : 1 on my normal highway speeds. This is nothing but a carbon maker and sounds like what Bonecollector is finding out.

[hotroadking]

Tape off the throttle (masking tape around it) and a piece on the bar housing,

now draw a line across both pieces of tape, your starting point, then roll the throttle all the way, mark on throttle where the line on the housing is, then do 1/2, 1/4 and 3/4's

This gives you a reference point on % of throttle.

[skull2007]

Not every dealer is a stealer and not every Indy is straight up honest.
you really hit the nail on the head with that. even the worst steelership has good people working in them. i pretty much like about all the employees at the steeler and get the impression they do all they can to help me out, but the olde steeler writes their check, and olde mother harley writes the steelers check. so . . . . with me it's never nothing personal against the employees at the steelership. it's complicated

[hotroadking]

Yeah I understand the point behind steelership name

A lot of these places went corporate and don't give a crap, auto store mentality, some are good.

A good HD Dealer is Clermont (Now Stormy Hill) in Clermont FL owner is still a family, have two locations leesburg as well.

Always feel welcome there, they have a lot of events all year, beer, food, bands, rides etc.

Couple of Indy's here have royally screwed a friend on labor, materials and repairs that were half ass, in fact I'm doing the work on his bike now and fixed up so many screw ups I couldn't start writing them here.

[Tomflhrci98]

Originally Posted by hotroadking

Tape off the throttle (masking tape around it) and a piece on the bar housing,

now draw a line across both pieces of tape, your starting point, then roll the throttle all the way, mark on throttle where the line on the housing is, then do 1/2, 1/4 and 3/4's

This gives you a reference point on % of throttle.

HRK, What I meant by guess work is in what to set the AFR at. A good guess is like you and I said, somewhere around 12 or 12.5 :1 for power. A dyno is the only way to tell you the right AFR without guessing.

In regards to the tape on the throttle I like to draw my lines according to what the PC3 says on the laptop and I usually mark 20%, 40%, 60% and 80%. Those relate to the columns in the map.

Also, on the other note: I could NEVER afford to take my bike to a dealer for repairs. I had to when I was on the road once and it cost me $270.00 and they didn't even fix anything. They just looked at it and said "We don't know what that noise is...pay at the cashier please".

[hotroadking]

Yeah I do my own work,

Like the guy said,, I pack my own chute's that way if it's screwed up it's only my fault and I don't have to trust others to do it right...

the % of throttle is a good way as well.

I have the Daytona Twin Tech setup, for the EFI it records data to the twin scan and you can see AFR by cell.

For my bike I have the carb unit and it reads back to a LCD the afr and records data so you can print it out.

[Lucifer]

Not every dealer is a stealer and not every Indy is straight up honest.
you really hit the nail on the head with that. even the worst steelership has good people working in them.

!00% agreement with that.One thing gets my goat is how they pay their wrenches. I think(and I'm not alone with this) they should pay their experienced wrenches 1/3 of the door rate,1/3 for the owner,1/3 for the shop and 1/3 for the wrench,which at the dealer here is $65.00/hr so a wrench there with 31 yrs exp should get $21.66 but it's nowhere close to what he's getting. 31yrs is at the same dealership and he can fix anything you put in front of him.

[HellBoy]

They get $100 an hour here in NYC, don't know what the mech's split is though. I think a senior mechanic should be making 60-100k a year at least.

[fujimo]

dyno sucked my intake gaskets out,,,,mileage went to about half,,,,had dynoed again,,,different dealer,,,same mileage,,,had done ounce more by indy,,,, same mileage,,,,NONE of them figured out intake,,,,i pulled intake off ,,,replaced gaskets,,,back to 46 50 mpg,,,, never will i dyno again,,,, pops

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by fujimo

dyno sucked my intake gaskets out,,,,mileage went to about half,,,,had dynoed again,,,different dealer,,,same mileage,,,had done ounce more by indy,,,, same mileage,,,,NONE of them figured out intake,,,,i pulled intake off ,,,replaced gaskets,,,back to 46 50 mpg,,,, never will i dyno again,,,, pops

Dyno didn't suck the gaskets out. Bike just hadn't been run that hard until the dyno pull & the gaskets weren't right to begin with. If you'd have passed a line of semis @ WOT on a long uphill stretch or something like that, the gaskets would've have failed anyway. But the fact that the shops didn't find the intake leaks is an even bigger problem.

The dyno is a great tool, but the operator has to know what to do with the data he gets from it. And if the machine doesn't have the air/fuel ratio "sniffer" attachment, you don't want to use it, unless you know for a fact the A/F ratio is right & are just wanting HP/torque numbers, or to make some minor adjustments like ignition timing to see if you get an improvement or not.

[fujimo]

there you go again,,,some crap out of book,,,bike had not been run hard?????ask some of 30 or 40 who ride with me,,,, bike is and has been run hard for 80,000 plus miles,,,, mileage went to helll at 40,000,,,,, this is not the first or last harley this old man has run out,,,, 2002,,,, had 34,000 in 11 months,,,hard miles,,,, i do agree the idiots,,,,book smart like someone else,,,, should have found it,,,, this part of world is alot of mountains etc,,,, you have to pass a LOT of vehicles in short distance and uphill,,,not many double lane crap,,,, so most bikes here get worked hard,,,, i do not have an accurate speedometer,,,as have installed a baker 6 speed,,,, ALL of the people who ride with me ,will at some point of trip ask me to slow up,,,or as hugh puts it ,,,,you won the race,,,, pops

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by fujimo

dyno sucked my intake gaskets out,,,,mileage went to about half,,,,had dynoed again,,,different dealer,,,same mileage,,,had done ounce more by indy,,,, same mileage,,,,NONE of them figured out intake,,,,i pulled intake off ,,,replaced gaskets,,,back to 46 50 mpg,,,, never will i dyno again,,,, pops

Hey pops, a Dyno is more or less a real world simulator that will print out torque and hp graphs, nothing more. Instead of finding a long straight away to run the bike, cut it off, coast to a stop and check plugs,for each throttle position you want to dial in, you can put it on a dyno and dial in the bike without going anywhere, you're just spinnin a drum.The seals were gonna fail,just so happens it was on a dyno when they did.
I don't wanna argue with you but if you're referring to Art as book smart,I'm sure he is, BUT....check his credentials, the man forgot more than most of us will ever know about internal combustion engines and how to get the most out of them.

[skull2007]

i'm glad to have art and every member on this forums advise and wisdom. we need every bit of anythig anyone has to offer on this forum to keep these bikes running. god knows HD isn't much value after the sale. we all need each others experience and knowledge, i for one value every word of it regarless of what we chose to call it. it's what makes this forum what it is . . . a great resourse and forum. so thanks and keep it coming. i need all the help can get

[fujimo]

When i joined this forum,,,some months ago,,,my first question was,,,why am i not getting decent mpg,,, art was here than as well as most others,,,, NOONE said check your intake gaskets,,,, so like you say ,,,maybe he forgot,,,, I have been down at 55,,,60 miles an hour,,,, i do not need more torque or speed,,,, he implied,,,, no,,,said bike has not been run hard,,,, he knows nothing about me or how i ride,,,, i am 6'4",,,wiegh 260 ,,,have one bag full of tools,,,other side full of assortrd rain ,,,foul weather gear,,,,so bike works hard on flat with my big a////,,,, and to give an example,,,, art may ,,,if veteran,,, understand,,,if in country,,,veitnam,,, you feel sharp pain in stomach,,,hear rifle report,,,look down and see blood,,,, good chance you can say you were shot,,,, if you take bike to dyno,,,,had been getting 45 ,,48 mpg,,,and bike immediatly drops to 29 ,,35,,,, good chance dyno pulled gaskets,,,, do not have to have alot of knowledge to understand that,,,i was not too worried untill gas made its price increase,,,, so poor dumb me ,,,i fixed it,,,, noone else on this forum had an answer,,,,oh take that back,,,some suggested i put it on dyno,,,, art races bikes,,,,sportsters,,,speed record ,,,of what good that does the average biker,,,,sorry if i offende anyone,,,but at 68 years old,,,i have probably experienced as many problems ,,,and fixed on the road,,,, as art or most others,,,,and oh goody,,, chew on this one,,,i do plug and mount my own tires,,,, everyone shudder now,,,,pops

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by fujimo

When i joined this forum,,,some months ago,,,my first question was,,,why am i not getting decent mpg,,, art was here than as well as most others,,,, NOONE said check your intake gaskets,,,, so like you say ,,,maybe he forgot,,,, I have been down at 55,,,60 miles an hour,,,, i do not need more torque or speed,,,, he implied,,,, no,,,said bike has not been run hard,,,, he knows nothing about me or how i ride,,,, i am 6'4",,,wiegh 260 ,,,have one bag full of tools,,,other side full of assortrd rain ,,,foul weather gear,,,,so bike works hard on flat with my big a////,,,, and to give an example,,,, art may ,,,if veteran,,, understand,,,if in country,,,veitnam,,, you feel sharp pain in stomach,,,hear rifle report,,,look down and see blood,,,, good chance you can say you were shot,,,, if you take bike to dyno,,,,had been getting 45 ,,48 mpg,,,and bike immediatly drops to 29 ,,35,,,, good chance dyno pulled gaskets,,,, do not have to have alot of knowledge to understand that,,,i was not too worried untill gas made its price increase,,,, so poor dumb me ,,,i fixed it,,,, noone else on this forum had an answer,,,,oh take that back,,,some suggested i put it on dyno,,,, art races bikes,,,,sportsters,,,speed record ,,,of what good that does the average biker,,,,sorry if i offende anyone,,,but at 68 years old,,,i have probably experienced as many problems ,,,and fixed on the road,,,, as art or most others,,,,and oh goody,,, chew on this one,,,i do plug and mount my own tires,,,, everyone shudder now,,,,pops

Getting 45-48MPG with a man your size is damm good,no problems at all there. But when you had your bike on the dyno,my guess is the throttle was wound to the stops through the gears like the operator was looking for max hp and tq numbers,which would put a lot of strain on the seals.
Racing does help the average biker,because inferior parts or improper assembly will show up in a hurry...Big Time. There is more to it than that too.
All the major car/bike makers watch their race teams very closely and incorperate any new technology in many aspects(safety,performance,suspension)they find into their street vehicles because racing tests these things to the extreme and if it works on the track,it'll help on the street. When these guys talk I listen and take notes.
If you don't have practical experience or know how, you ain't gonna make it racing.
If no one said to check for an intake leak when you said your mileage dropped, it was definately an oversite.
Your experience is appreciated on this site too and I don't see a problem plugging a tire as long as its not used for sustained hi-speed riding(100+MPH)

[hotroadking]

Just because the gaskets were sucked in on the dyno doesn't mean the dyno did it, it's doubful because the few pulls they made didn't cause the bolts to loosen and the gaskets to be sucked in.

I would say the bolts have been working loose over time, or the gasket material failing for whatever reason and when you hit the dyno it was far enough along the the gaskets got pulled in at that time, it happens or as they say shidt happens.

I rebuilt my 98 RK with heads, cams, pistons etc, dang bike would not start and run, we checked cam alignment etc. The bike was running fine on the way in nothing wrong, basically the coil had given out and it happened at the time we restarted the bike, no way we could have predected it nor was it a result of the motor being hopped up,

Dyno runs are hard on bikes,, whacking a throttle open from 2500 to wot in 4th gear is not something you do on the street much. Usually you run through the gears.

Had a stator give out on the dyno, wasn't the dyno's fault the motor just happened to hammer the shaft nut loose enough on that run to pound out the center of the stator. (It did it on the street too later on)

I'd bet the gaskets were either failing or the intake was getting loose.

I couldn't find that thread, but it's a good point you made to check the gaskets. Usually Id' suggest checking for intake leaks, vac leaks, wrong jetting, etc.

Heck I had a bolt come out on the rear pully last night, loosened up the others from the vibration, good thing I didn't hammer it or I would have busted all 5, I put them in with red locktite three months or more ago, so that's my fault.

[fujimo]

well let me see,,,they have you sign a hold harmless before they run your bike on dyno,,,, does that meen nothing is going to happen???? or do they expect it to,,,,and back to racing,,,what did we do before dyno,,,, and do we need the best setup for the street,,,, as far as speed torque etc,,,, i can put in my own maps and change as often as i like to find what runs best for hiway,,, costs nothing,,,,is not hard on motor as dyno,,,, if i were running on salt flats or drag strip ,,,would use one,,,,but than again ,,,,did we use them when i was on strip years ago,,,no,,,, sometimes things are sold to us we really do not need ,,, but the salesmen are very convincing,,,, and oh gee wizz,,,charlie has dynoed his,,,,, 99.9 percent of us do not need it,,,, hey,,,by the way ,,,,i can pulll my front wheel off ground from first to second or third,,,,, that is more than i need,,,,, except when i have a brain fart and feel it is just the thing to do,,,,, pops

[skull2007]

could not agree more. most of us don't need a dyno when we're running a stage 1 on a street bike with a pc111. and we certainly don't need one of those HD downloads with a pc111. no reason we can't tune a pc111 by the seat of our pants. maybe once we get into pistons, cams and headwork we could use one. some guys seem to think we need one every time we changd plugs.