[Lucifer]

A guy described to me what is going on with his bike.
This is his description:
The bike is a 97 1200 sportster. When I leave a stop light,unless I give it a lot of gas,the engine makes a sound like marbles in a can.Just like a car sounds with its timing off.Also,sometimes but not always, when I shut it off it wants to keep on running.(diesels).I took off the timing cover yesterday and put my timing light on it.The timing mark was all over the place. It never stayed still.It looked like it was moving about 5-10 degrees in either direction of center.The front jug noise is kinda like a chirping noise. Not metallic. Its just in fourth gear and only when I'm shifting through it going to fifth.

Any thoughts as to whats wrong with this bike??
Thanks.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

A guy described to me what is going on with his bike.
This is his description:
The bike is a 97 1200 sportster. When I leave a stop light,unless I give it a lot of gas,the engine makes a sound like marbles in a can.Just like a car sounds with its timing off.Also,sometimes but not always, when I shut it off it wants to keep on running.(diesels).I took off the timing cover yesterday and put my timing light on it.The timing mark was all over the place. It never stayed still.It looked like it was moving about 5-10 degrees in either direction of center.The front jug noise is kinda like a chirping noise. Not metallic. Its just in fourth gear and only when I'm shifting through it going to fifth.

Any thoughts as to whats wrong with this bike??
Thanks.

Check the ignition module in the nosecone of the cam cover - the timing should not change like that. May very well have to pull the cam cover too & see what's going on inside with the cam & pinion gears. If the nosecone cover is riveted on, it's probably never been off before - you can get the correct rivets from H-D (not from a hardware store) but most people use machine screws to put it back on.

[hotroadking]

if the mark is jumping I'd say you might have a loose ignition module in the nose cone, if it's been replaced and the screws were not properly installed (IE BLUE LOCTITE) then when loose the module could move back and forth and give different timing, may move a lot under acceleration.

I'd say don't ride it until it is fixed detonation is akin to taking a hammer to your pistons.

[Lucifer]

If he didn't have the idle set between 1300-1500 RPM when checking the timing, could that be a reason for the mark jumping around??
I was thinking the pinging and run on could be from excessive carbon build up, but if the pick up was loose it could cause those symptoms too, right??
Any ideas what the chirp could be??
Could all those symptoms be from the ignition pickup??

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

If he didn't have the idle set between 1300-1500 RPM when checking the timing, could that be a reason for the mark jumping around??

If he didn't follow the procedure described in the service manual *exactly* the mark will appear to jump around, or you can't see it @ all - it's not as simple as an older-model car.

I was thinking the pinging and run on could be from excessive carbon build up, but if the pick up was loose it could cause those symptoms too, right??
Any ideas what the chirp could be??
Could all those symptoms be from the ignition pickup??

Not necessarily, but 1 thing @ a time & until he knows for a fact the timing is right, no sense speculating about anything else. Also, '90's (thru '03) Evo Sportsters tend to come from the factory with the timing a bit more advanced than it should be & backing off 2-4 degrees nearly always makes them run better.

[Lucifer]

Thanks Art, Yep, 1 at a time.Set the timing 1st and see whats left.

[ironchoppermc]

I am having the same issues on a bike I just purchased,where is the nosecone located so i can check if the module is loose?
my bike is a 1991 sportster 883,with a 1200 kit installed,it also has a crane fireball programable cam kit(i think thats what its called)could that just be set wrong?
at low idle it sounds like marbles,or a bad rod on a car engine,as soon as you idle up it goes away.the bike rides great and have no other issues,I just dont want to ride it this way and ruin the motor.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by ironchoppermc

I am having the same issues on a bike I just purchased,where is the nosecone located so i can check if the module is loose?
my bike is a 1991 sportster 883,with a 1200 kit installed,it also has a crane fireball programable cam kit(i think thats what its called)could that just be set wrong?
at low idle it sounds like marbles,or a bad rod on a car engine,as soon as you idle up it goes away.the bike rides great and have no other issues,I just dont want to ride it this way and ruin the motor.

The "nosecone" is the part of the cam cover that sticks out on the right side of the engine. However, your ignition module may be elsewhere - not sure about your '91, but for example, on my '95 it's behind the triangular-shaped cover, aft of the battery on the left side & the only thing inside the cosecone is the "Hall sensor".

[ironchoppermc]

on my 91 the module is mounted on the left side rearward of the battery,would it being loose still be an issue since its not mounted to the motor,or would I just have other issues

[Lucifer]

If you have the Crane programable ignition module, then you may just have to select a different advance curve. If the module under the side cover in back of the battery was loose(snug it up) it wouldn't effect timing, a loose pick up sensor could throw your timing off. That's on the other end of the ignition module harness under the cam cover.

[Lucifer]

Update... he set the idle at 1500RPM and the timing mark is centered, so timing is good. Whats left is the pinging pulling away from stop lights unless the revs are up and the chirp from the front jug shifting from 4th to 5th. The bike is bone stock,it's been doing it since he got it about a year ago.
All suggestions Welcome.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Update... he set the idle at 1500RPM and the timing mark is centered, so timing is good. Whats left is the pinging pulling away from stop lights unless the revs are up and the chirp from the front jug shifting from 4th to 5th. The bike is bone stock,it's been doing it since he got it about a year ago.
All suggestions Welcome.

Next thing to check, assuming he's using quality gasoline & the spark-plugs are good, is to test the VOES (vacuum operated electrical switch) & make sure the electrical/vacuum lines going to it are in good shape. The stock ignition module has 2 advance curves & the VOES is what switches between them, based on intake manifold "vacuum".

There really isn't a "vacuum" in the manifold, it's just that atmospheric air pressure is higher outside the carb than inside the manifold & when you crank the throttle, the pressure differential changes - whack the throttle wide open & the manifold "vacuum" can drop to -0-. The factory setting is 4.5" Hg & when the level drops below that, the module switches from the advanced curve to the slower curve & the reason is to keep the engine from "pinging" under hard acceleration.

Cruising down the road @ part throttle, you're on the advanced curve, which helps throttle response & fuel mileage, but when you get on it, the VOES switches. If the setting isn't right, it'll switch @ the wrong time. And if the VOES is not hooked up properly, it won't work @ all & you'll be on the slower curve all the time.

Just the "vacuum" line being old, brittle & leaking air can cause the VOES to mess up & many tests to see when the VOES actually switches have shown it's not consistent from one bike to another, even when the bikes are nearly identical. Consult the factory service manual to correct the problem(s).

[Lucifer]

He uses 91 octane and says plugs are good, I'll tell him to check the vacuum hose and the ground wire. Thanks.

[Lucifer]

Seems he can't find the VOES...but what he did find is a vacuum line off the back of the carb plugged off with a little bolt and silicone in it. That could be part of the problem,no VOES, do you know if the '97 Sporty's came with a vacuum operated petcock, he says there isn't one on it and I've seen those lines plugged off like that and a gravity type petcock installed.
I'm wondering if the bike is bone stock or just stock looking and monkeyed with

Thanks for the help so far...I told him to get the SM and Parts Catalog so if/when he gets back to me I'll have more questions

[chucktx]

if he has a freeflow petcock the vacuum line from the carb. will be plugged.

[Lucifer]

The vacuum line for the VOES comes off the carb too, right??. So on the bikes with vacuum operated petcocks do both lines(VOES & petcock) attach to the same nipple on the carb with a T fitting?? I've never really checked out a bike with a vacuum petcock.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Seems he can't find the VOES...but what he did find is a vacuum line off the back of the carb plugged off with a little bolt and silicone in it. That could be part of the problem,no VOES, do you know if the '97 Sporty's came with a vacuum operated petcock, he says there isn't one on it and I've seen those lines plugged off like that and a gravity type petcock installed.
I'm wondering if the bike is bone stock or just stock looking and monkeyed with

Thanks for the help so far...I told him to get the SM and Parts Catalog so if/when he gets back to me I'll have more questions

My '95 & '00 models both came with a vacuum-operated petcock & VOES & yes, Lucifer, those lines do split off from the same fitting. Many have replaced the stock petcock with a high-flow one from Pingle (not vacuum) but that's not necessary until you get into serious engine work. Only exception is doing something like hard on the throttle in high gear for good distance - i.e., going up a long hill on the interstate passing a line of semis. Intake manifold "vacuum" can drop so low that the engine drains the float bowl & you have to back off the throttle a little bit for fuel to flow again. But that's only happened to me once, right after I got the '95 & didn't know the system yet.

People have taken the VOES off too, thinking that'd make for better performance, but it doesn't - unless you replace the whole ignition with a different type, which isn't necessary either - again, unless you get serious with engine work. I do not have a VOES on the race setup, but I do on both street bikes & it does work. Some have changed the setting as to when it switches from one advance curve to the other, but only when head work, cams, etc. require it. If you just remove the VOES from an otherwise basically stock bike, you will lose performance & fuel mileage both.

[Lucifer]

He got a new VOES, installed it and says all is good now, he also re-torqued the exhaust at the head and the chirp is pretty much gone,got some turns or partial anyway on the intake manifold too. Hasn't experienced any run on since the VOES was installed.
Thanks for all the help.

[chucktx]

good news!!!!!!!!

[Tomflhrci98]

Good info too - since I am trying to understand what parts I need or want for my EFI to carb conversion. And those Pingel valves are pricey. I think I'll look into the stock valve with the vacuum switch. Sounds safer anyway.

And I will get a VOEs. The only outstanding question I have is how the VOES switch mounts. I can't find a mounting bracket in my HD RK parts book.