[Aches n Pains]

Been scratching my head for several days and could really use some serious help!

1977 Iron Head Stroker engine - Polished, S&S bottom end. .10 over pistons. Dual plugged. Big valves. Andrews .490 cam. Estimated 1200 cc. Compression tested at 150 psi front and 135psi rear. Not sure of the compression ratio. Alternator conversion kit. Dyna S ignition.

Starter
Fog Hollow part # A14074 - high torque/output starter motor. 1.4kw (2 horsepower) vs. .8kw standard. Four pole. Designed for compression to 15:1. New starter drive and starter gear.
Pulled starter apart and it looks good. Starter turns great on the bench.

Symptoms
Pulled drain plug in engine to clear out all oil that might hamper starting.
Engine can be turned over reasonably with the kick start.
Engine turns over rapidly when one plug is removed from each cylinder.
Starter connected directly to fully charged truck battery will not turn over the engine more than one or two revolutions with all plugs in place.

We’ve scratched our heads for hours and tested everything we can think of. Would appreciate any guidance you guys can provide.
Has anyone had experience with the Fog Hollow starter?
It doesn’t feel like there is excessive compression but are we missing anything?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Doug

[Red Rider]

Are you certain you are getting a good ground for your starter?
Did it work before and not work now?
Are you getting spark with the starter motor? I'd double check that in this situation.
Does it start with the kicker?
Do you have new gas in the system?
Still a lot more questions at this time to be as useful as I'd like to be.

[Aches n Pains]

Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Red Ryder.

We tried it with a variety of grounds all of which seemed to be good.

It has never turned over well but seems to have gotten worse.

I'll check for spark but not really worried about starting at this point. Just want it to turn over.

Will start with the kicker.

Gas is fresh but, again, not worried about starting at this point.

Appreciate any additional thoughts.

Doug

[ironhorse]

turns over rapidly with kick or starter?
Connected to the starter directly if i read you right.
If you can turn over rapidly with the plugs out then one or two with them installed assumming that the engine is not a fresh rebuild and it use to start with out compression release before, hooking it up to the big battery and checking the grounds pretty much eliminates the battery and cables robbing your juice, but not out of the question if your hooking up to the battery posts not direct to the starter. and alot of starters will spin good with out any resistance.(bench testing) I recomend going through and doing a component volt drop which will eliminate each section of your system with the sum not droping you below about 9.6-10 volts I would begin with the starter. getting out your multi-meter check the drop on the starter, pos lead on the armature pos post and neg to gound and I bet you will find your culprit, then back up the system to the cable. let us know if that doesn't show you any thing we'll throw you some more ideas

[chucktx]

how is the timing, if the valves are not opening at the correct time, it will cause the problem you are having. using a kick you can generate more power than an electric starter. and if the timing is advanced a bit the electric starter is fighting the compression, but will start by kicking. try retarding the spark a bit....hope this helps a bit and let us know!!!

[cowboy]

double check the timing If all is good there I would not think 150/135 would need a comp release , so I would double check all the starter conections

[ironhorse]

oops ..oh ya and timing as chuck said

[Aches n Pains]

Thanks to everyone for their great suggestions. Much appreciated.

Some additional information:
1. We have had the bike running just fine with no overheating and no back fire. We even posted it as "risen from the dead" late in 2006.

2. Our current concerns is the seemingly high effort needed for the starter to rotate the motor when wired directly to a known good truck battery. We're confident she will start if we can get her to turn over well.

3. As a second and independent problem, the solenoid fails to retract sufficiently to actuate the starter drive and the starter motor even when wired directly to battery, both on the bike and when bench tested. This is a new, Accel solenoid. J&P is going to replace the new solenoid but any thoughts would be appreciated. Again, this is not related to the starter problem as we are bypassing the solenoid and wiring directly to the starter.

Thanks again, Doug (Aches n Pains)

[chucktx]

if there is a starter repair shop near you....ask them to do a load test on the starter....it will show if it is drawing to many amps. a weak armature/stator assy will cause it not to have original power. also do a growler test to check for broken winding wires....this will also cause loss of power. check end bushings/bearings.....another overlooked problem.....hope ya getting closer..

[Red Rider]

Like Chuck said. You are probably looking at a bad winding, which would give you the symptoms you describe - runs fine with no load but a slug with one. In fact, after all else you've said, it is the only thing that makes sense...anything else would have to be gremlin related.

[ironhorse]

The volt drop is basicly a load test on the bike with a multimeter, you can check your armature for a high draw with out removing it from the bike, but if you already have it off the scoot then as chuck said. and if you have it apart again take a close loof for heat, abrasion, and inspect the comutator, for shorts,

[viking]

not sure if you have advance weights??I had them stick in advance on one of my shovels and this made it really hard to turn over

[Aches n Pains]

All,

Thanks so much for your helpful analysis and suggestions. Unfortunately, a health problem has come up that will put the project off for a week or two. When that gets straightened out, I’ll get back with the results of all the testing and experimentation.

Doug

[chucktx]

get well soon, hope it aint to bad!!!!!

[hotroadking]

Do you have access to a starter that is a known good unit, if so put it on the bike, if the bike spins up and starts it's going to point back at your starter.

How old is that starter, perhaps fog hollow will replace it.

I would agree that taking it to a shop that specializes in starters would be a good idea.

You need to eliminate the starter or the motor.

If it can't crank over with the plugs in the compression is causing the problem, and I'm curious how you got the compression readings if the starter isn't cranking the motor over.

My bet is bad starter and if you want a great starter for it with a lifetime warranty then get an All Balls Starter