[Big Ben]

I understand why people want to make a big dsitinction between people who got here legally and people who didn't, but it's important to remember that, even though our economy depends on their labor, for unskilled Mexican laborers with no family in the US, there is no legal way for them to enter the US. We need them here, but we give them no legal way to come. Until that is fixed, blaming the problem on the illegals is just dumb.

Other than basic human rights what rights does an illegal alien have that are guaranteed by law? Remember, we not speaking of a legal migrant but an illegal migrant (alien). There is a very big differrence.

CD, I think the concern is with their basic human rights. Some of the Minutemen may be decent upstanding citizens, but among them are some seriously hateful racists with Charles Bronson complexes who have publicly stated their intentions to use violence to stop immigrants, even threatening to strand them in the desert with no water.

If the govenrment were warning the illegals where the border patrols were, that would be unforgivable, but warning them away from bigoted vigilantes is just common sense.

[hotroadking]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

CD, I think the concern is with their basic human rights. Some of the Minutemen may be decent upstanding citizens, but among them are some seriously hateful racists with Charles Bronson complexes who have publicly stated their intentions to use violence to stop immigrants, even threatening to strand them in the desert with no water.

Funny I haven't seen or heard reports of any violence against the illegals by the Minutemen.

Maybe I missed those new clips, I think most are patriots not bigots, but they get labled that way because the illegals are hispanic and not white. Anytime a white person does anything that resembles the possibility of racism it's tossed up in the air by those of the other race.

JMO it's a publicity stunt to draw attention to the other sides plight.

I still don't buy it, if you are illegal, go to jail, if you hire illegals you go to jail, face fines and maybe loose a business. About the only way to solve it is to legalize and devise a monitor status or to penalize the people using the illegals.

Be interesting the increased costs of housing, lack of production and resultant increases in produce expenses, then we'll hear everyone bitching about that.

[SPORSTERBOY]

DUH? IF THERE IS NO LEGAL WAY FOR THEM TO BE HERE THEN WHY DON'T WE JUST ROUND THEM UP AND SEND-M-BACK. THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE LAWS IN PLACE, BUT WE JUST DON'T ENFORCE THEM. NO IT'S TO THE POINT THAT, WE DON'T WANT TO STILL ENFORCE THEM, AND LOOK BAD OR INHUMANE BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT THE BURDONE, THAT'S BECOME OUT OF CONTROL, SURE GIVE THEM AMESTY. HEY WHILE WERE AT IT, LET'S GO AHEAD AND LET BI GONES BE BI GONES AND LET ALL THOSE NOT SO SEVERE CRIMINALS OUT ON EARLY RELEASE. I SAY YOU BREAK OUR LAWS AND GET CAUGHT SO BE IT! GO AHEAD AND GIVE THEM THERE CITIZENSHIP AND LET THEM PAY SOME TAXES AND REAP SOME REAL AMERICAN BENNIES. LETS SEE ONE OF US PULL THAT KINDA CRAP TRY'N TO MIGRATE TO MEX OR CANADA. I'M NOT FOR SURE ON THE REAL FACT, BUT FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD SINCE I'M A CONVICT I CAN'T EVEN TAKE A DAY RIDE INTO CANADA. & DAM WHAT THE F$$K I CAN'T EVEN BUY A GUN! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS HOLE PICTURE. IT'S TIME FOR AMERICA TO WAKE UP! BUT WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THESE PETTY THINGS, WERE TO BUSSY UP EVERYONE ELSE'S ASS WITH TRY'N TO POLICE THERE GOVERMENT'S. HERES A IDEA? HOW BOUT WE SEND ALL THE BORDER JUMPERS TO IRAq, AND ALL OF THOSE WHINY UNGRATFULL OTHERS WHO THINK AMERICA SUCKS, A ONE WAY TICKIT BACK FROM WHERE THEY CAME FROM! THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH AMERICA IS THE POLITICIANS RUNNIN IT. THE ONE'S YOU ELECTED, REMEMBER I'M A CONVICT I CAN'T VOTE, BUT LETS GIVE THAT RIGHT TO THE BORDER JUMPER! I AGREE WITH THE RUSSIN METHOD LETS USE OUR GUNS [ LIKE WE'RE GOOD AT, AND SET A GOOD IMPRESSION ABOUT ILLEGALY PASSING OUR BORDER] .

[Killer-B]

Big Ben : I sure hope that you don’t believe everything that you read, and/or see on T.V., especially being over in Japan. There are seriously hateful people in every aspect of life; along with many more good people. For some reason you seem to jump on the folks that you have know idea who they are, or don’t agree with you. JMHO.
Try doubling up on your meds… and relax.
You, nor I, nor the many, will be able to change this world for the better, it will just be a natural progression; for the good or bad; only time will tell.
Just my .02

[CD]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

I understand why people want to make a big dsitinction between people who got here legally and people who didn't, but it's important to remember that, even though our economy depends on their labor, for unskilled Mexican laborers with no family in the US, there is no legal way for them to enter the US. We need them here, but we give them no legal way to come. Until that is fixed, blaming the problem on the illegals is just dumb.


CD, I think the concern is with their basic human rights. Some of the Minutemen may be decent upstanding citizens, but among them are some seriously hateful racists with Charles Bronson complexes who have publicly stated their intentions to use violence to stop immigrants, even threatening to strand them in the desert with no water.

If the govenrment were warning the illegals where the border patrols were, that would be unforgivable, but warning them away from bigoted vigilantes is just common sense.

There has never been a single documented case of abuse or for that matter any physical contact between the Minute Men and Illegals. They do not confront them, they monitor and report their positions. They mostly setup on private land and are welcomed by the ranchers that are sick and tired of the trash, breaking and entering, brush fires caused by abandoned camp fires etc. The liberal press is bound and determined to paint this from the "poor migrant" side. The sympathetic reports and absolutley no coverage of the other side unless it feeds into their agenda.

Big Ben, have you ever lived in AZ or CA or Texas? Do you know the tax burden the citizens of these states have to bear to provide medical coverage? UMC hospital has lost nearly 8 million dollars a year in unpaid medical care given to illegal aliens. That is care that is mandated by the fed! It's one of those do this but we won't pay you back deals. This year for the first time the fed will reimburse UMC...to the tune of less than a million. The benefits paid out to illegals with forged documents is staggering and who pays it? We do. Do illegals pay taxes? Social Security? Nope. But, they are guranteed free medical care and steal welfare.

So, I ask you, why do you paint the Minute Men as racists when you do not know a single one? The only way you know them is by what is reported by the biased liberal media. Many of them are former military and the others are citizens that are sick and tired of a do nothing government.

Since you live in Japan, how does the Japanese government handle illegal immigration and stealing welfare?

The bottom line is that we have to fix the problem or cities like Tucson will become economic ghost towns because no high tech company will set up shop here. I am lucky in that I can move DP about anywhere I have to if push comes to shove. There are already enclaves of limited access suburbs with their own stores and services and more and more gated communities are being built.

[Big Ben]

CD, I'm judging the Minutemen by the statements several of their own members have made. Like I said, many of them may be decent people, but some of them don't even hide their racism. And yeah, my impressions are probably skewed by the treatment the media gives them, but I'm going from their own words. Maybe the media cherrypicked the most racist guys they've got to speak for them. You are definitely in a better position to know than I am. Still, even if only a few of them are loose cannons, isn't it better to try to avoid ugly "accidents" by reducing the chance of confrontations?

About the economic burden: If they were given work visas, they would be paying the taxes to take care of the problem, and making decent wages so they wouldn't need handouts. Fix the immigration laws and the problem goes away.

Since you live in Japan, how does the Japanese government handle illegal immigration and stealing welfare?

We probably don't want to learn from them. In Japan, we've got thousands of people whose grandparents all immigrated here legally before WWII, whose parents lived here their whole lives, and who know no language and culture other than Japanese, but who can't get citizenship because they're not ethnically Japanese and have to carry arround their registration card their whole lives. Immigration's a mess here, and would be worse if they didn't have ocean protecting them.

Killer-b,
That's why I said I'm sure that some of them are decent people, because I don't want to judge the whole group on the statements of a few members. I'm actually a pretty laid-back guy; I'm fine with people having different opinions, but bigotry and hatred make me want to speak out. I thought speaking our minds was what this forum was for. (The only meds I'm on is coffee, and if I double that, I'll end up posting twice as much )

HRK,
No reports of actual violence yet, but several of them have actually made violent threats, and some of them are registered KKK members, so I don't think I'm out of line in thinking that a bunch of heavily armed guys with a lot of free time on their hands could be potentially dangerous.

SPORTSTERBOY,
I respect your opinions and I think you've got some important things to say, but your posts are really hard to read. Could you lay off the CAPS key? I realize you don't mean it that way, but it seems like you're yelling when it's all upper case like that.


Added later:
The tone of voice that I have in mind must not come across in my writing, since it looks like I'm p*ssing people off here, and I'm sorry about that. In my mind, we're having a good natured debate, and I really get into debating. Some of my writing may be coming across as a lot more hostile than I mean it.

Please imagine everything I write with a smile and a wink and a round of beer. We're just a bunch of bikers shooting the breeze here.

[hotroadking]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

HRK,
No reports of actual violence yet, but several of them have actually made violent threats, and some of them are registered KKK members, so I don't think I'm out of line in thinking that a bunch of heavily armed guys with a lot of free time on their hands could be potentially dangerous.

Added later:
The tone of voice that I have in mind must not come across in my writing, since it looks like I'm p*ssing people off here, and I'm sorry about that. In my mind, we're having a good natured debate, and I really get into debating. Some of my writing may be coming across as a lot more hostile than I mean it.

Please imagine everything I write with a smile and a wink and a round of beer. We're just a bunch of bikers shooting the breeze here.

Tone comes across fine to me.

I haven't seen or heard any KKK references nor any racist interviews, and I don't believe we have "heavily armed" people in fact that's part of the Minutemen is not being armed they are observers, they report to the authorities.

See the problem with the law is it's a federal law, local PD's are not able to enforce it, one such local PD in AZ is trying to enforce a state law that is similar so they can keep the illegals out and lo and behold, the minority groups are sueing to stop the process, they say it's a federal issue and the states can't interviene.

What we have is a large growing hispanic community that is basically doing everything they can to gain political power, that's what it's about, the more hispanics the more clout.

All America wants is LEGAL IMMIGRATION yet the focus has been turned by the media to degrade the process of the Minutemen turn attention to the "rights of illegal immigrants" and focus on the poor immigrant.

Well I for one don't have a problem with legal immigration.

you want to come here fine, sign up and pass muster
you want to live here, speak english
you want to work here pay taxes like I do.

Otherwise they can get the f out.

I guarantee you if Japan had an influx of North Korean illegal immigrants they would be tossing them out in a hurry.

So FYI there are not heavily armed white men in sheets standing guard with 30-6 rifles night scopes shooting at the illegals coming across, and at the same time they are not detaining anyone beating them hurting, cutting or anything of that matter. You now have the facts not the bullshidt that comes accross from those that dont like the process.

[Big Ben]

I know I've seen pictures of Minutemen posing with guns, but maybe they don't bring them on patrol? Kind of hard to believe, but I guess it's possible.

I just looked it up, and it looks like the Minutemen don't accept current members of the KKK, they just take money and Page Ranking support from them, so I was wrong about that. I know I have read interviews with members saying pretty racist and violent stuff, but I don't remember where, so I can't back that up. Again, I'm not saying all of these guys are racists, and some of them are probably good people trying to do a good thing, but come on, you know some of those guys are out there because they hate Mexicans, not because they care about immigration law.

you want to come here fine, sign up and pass muster
you want to live here, speak english
you want to work here pay taxes like I do.

Like I said before, they don't have the option of "signing up to pass muster". There is no legal way for a Mexican national to get a visa to work in the US unless he already has family there. There's no line they can wait in(unless they've got technical skills, in which case they're not the immigrants we're worried about), and Mexicans aren't eligible for the green card lottery either. If we give them a way to work legally, they'll be paying taxes. The problem is the laws and the companies that exploit these people.

You don't solve a prostitution problem by busting the hookers--they'll just go back out on the street the next day. To have any effect on the problem, you bust the johns and the pimps. The problem is the demand and the exploitation.

The Minutemen are like an old busybody phoning the police about the streetwalkers--not completely useless, but close to it. If they spent their energies trying to get the laws fixed or finding the dishonest companies that hire illegals for the cheap labor, they'd make a much larger dent on the problem.

[Sleepy]

The minutemen are looking to set up border patrols at the northern border as well. What could be interesting is when they run into the migrant workers picking hops up in northern Idaho. I'm not a big fan of the minuteman concept. It's just an indication of an unresolved problem and a Page Ranking problem, which is being touched upon in this thread..a good one BTW.
Northern Idaho had had some problems dealing with stereotypical issues in the past. I'm sure that the Minutemen in general have honourable intentions but there's always the odd nutbar that'll blow it for everyone. It shouldn't be much of an issue keeping us out, most of us just want to visit... as for the criminal element getting across, that should be handled by someone trained and authorized in the use of force.
I see where we're going to need passports to enter your country by next year unless the two governments can agree on some secure ID card. We're getting used to the idea of passports. I think trade and tourism is going to take a hit..more on our side. fuel prices and the dollar are making us look unattractive..not to mention the passport issue.
You've got a political hot potato down your way with the migrant issue. I don't envy you guys at all. We're still trying to resolve our own problems and I'm seeing evidence of some similar style of problems coming.

[2fastnaz]

To begin with the Minutemen were formed in Arizona, an open carry state. Alot of people here carry guns openly, me included. Second I know several Minutemen all of whom are good hard working citizens who are tired of the crap. If I could make the time I'd join up.

I too saw the news clips of the guys threatning to use their guns to stop the illegal imigration. I promise you it's not the norm nor will it be accepted in the rank and file when they find out who it was.

I think the states should have as much right to arrest and deport them as the feds. just like ol sherrif Joe. Being illegal make them a criminal by definition.

[CD]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

I know I've seen pictures of Minutemen posing with guns, but maybe they don't bring them on patrol? Kind of hard to believe, but I guess it's possible.

Yes, they carry weapons for their own protection. Remember, the liberals haven't taken that right away...yet. When I am down by the border, a .45 is on my person all of the time.

I just looked it up, and it looks like the Minutemen don't accept current members of the KKK, they just take money and Page Ranking support from them, so I was wrong about that. I know I have read interviews with members saying pretty racist and violent stuff, but I don't remember where, so I can't back that up. Again, I'm not saying all of these guys are racists, and some of them are probably good people trying to do a good thing, but come on, you know some of those guys are out there because they hate Mexicans, not because they care about immigration law.

True and a questionable tactic but, legal. You do of course realize that there is a very large racist population in the Mexican community correct? Why is it we only look at the picture from one angle?


Like I said before, they don't have the option of "signing up to pass muster". There is no legal way for a Mexican national to get a visa to work in the US unless he already has family there. There's no line they can wait in(unless they've got technical skills, in which case they're not the immigrants we're worried about), and Mexicans aren't eligible for the green card lottery either. If we give them a way to work legally, they'll be paying taxes. The problem is the laws and the companies that exploit these people.

Should a Mexican have more right to enter than a Chinese? A Taiwanese? A Filipino? A Puerto Rican or Cuban?
You hit the nail on the head "...a way to work legally.." If you do that for the Mexicans, you will have to do it for anyone that wants to enter the USA or you are discriminating against the rest of the world in order to satisfy their demands. Are we ready for that large of a population increase? Nope.

You don't solve a prostitution problem by busting the hookers--they'll just go back out on the street the next day. To have any effect on the problem, you bust the johns and the pimps. The problem is the demand and the exploitation.
Well, it does work to a degree...However, the Hookers and Johns just move their business to a different street. Stopping prostitution is like trying to plug a leak in a dam with a thumb.

The Minutemen are like an old busybody phoning the police about the streetwalkers--not completely useless, but close to it. If they spent their energies trying to get the laws fixed or finding the dishonest companies that hire illegals for the cheap labor, they'd make a much larger dent on the problem.
I don't see it that way at all. One thing you do not hear on the news is what the BP officers tell us in the store and what they say to my step son. They appreciate any and all help they can get. He travels between Sells and Tucson a lot and he has made a lot of calls to report illegals. The BP agents we speak with do appreciate them. Of course, the senior agents will spin the yarn the way the political wind blows. Have you noticed the lack of information on how many illegals were captured because of their assistance? Do you think that is due to a lack of reporting on their part or the lack of reporting on the medias part?

Do you also realize that due to community involvement, IE them little old ladies burning up the phone lines and an effective neighborhood watch program, the worst drug and prostitution area in Tucson (Miracle Mile) was and is all but shut down? The police, mayor and council expressed their deepest appreciation of their efforts.

The issue is tough and sensitive and we tend to over look the fact that what we do for the Mexicans we do for all or look even more hypocritical.

[SPORSTERBOY]

It's Not Being Raceist, It's About Being American. That's The Problem Just Because I'm White And Have A Opinion About Another Race I'm Raceist. And See I Say That Because I'm [caucasion] But If I Wasn't It Would Be Fine, What If I Was Hispanic And Had The Same Views? Just For The Record I Have A Year Old 1/2 Hispanic Grandson.

[Big Ben]

Thanks everybody for the information. I've got a much fuller picture of what's going on with the Minutemen now.

I'm not sure why people think I'm singling out the Minutemen as racists. Of course there are racists in all racial groups (some of those Aztlan "La Raza" types are really hateful.) The reason I only mentioned the racists among the Minutemen is that the Minutemen were the subject of conversation, and I think their motivations are important to understand.

Should a Mexican have more right to enter than a Chinese? A Taiwanese? A Filipino? A Puerto Rican or Cuban?

But we've already got different quotas and different entry requirements for people from different countries. I think Mexico being our neighbor is a legitimate reason to give them special status, if only because of the practical problems involved in securing such a long border, combined with the fact that so many of them are already here illegally and we don't have anywhere near the money or the manpower to round them all up and send them all back. Anything we do is going to be "like trying to plug a leak in a dam with a thumb."

we tend to over look the fact that what we do for the Mexicans we do for all or look even more hypocritical.

But we already look hypocritical. We're a nation that was founded on the idea of taking in anyone who wanted to come, and now we're slamming the door in people's faces.

I know this is idealistic and naive, but one of the reasons I'm proud to be an American is that we're a nation of immigrants*, taking in anyone who wanted freedom, and made strong by taking the best parts of every immigrant culture we've blended together. I realize that there's no practical way we can take in everybody who wants to come anymore, but if we aren't going to keep Lady Liberty's promise, we really should be honest with ourselves and take down the @&%# statue. We've still got the beacon of Liberty lit, but when people answer her call, we tell them it was a limited-time offer. I don't know the answer, but it bothers me when my fellow citizens start thinking it's patriotic to keep out the people who are coming here seeking the same things their own ancestors came here seeking.



*(and some people who were brought here in chains, but that's a different issue.)

[SPORSTERBOY]

See How Common And Easy We Can Look At Something Being Raceist. Race Is Not The Issue. People From Forigen Countries Invadin Our Lands. And We As Americans Promoting And Rewarding It.

[GreyBear]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

CD, I'm judging the Minutemen by the statements several of their own members have made. Like I said, many of them may be decent people, but some of them don't even hide their racism. And yeah, my impressions are probably skewed by the treatment the media gives them, but I'm going from their own words. Maybe the media cherrypicked the most racist guys they've got to speak for them.

We probably don't want to learn from them. In Japan, we've got thousands of people whose grandparents all immigrated here legally before WWII, whose parents lived here their whole lives, and who know no language and culture other than Japanese, but who can't get citizenship because they're not ethnically Japanese and have to carry arround their registration card their whole lives. Immigration's a mess here, and would be worse if they didn't have ocean protecting them.

Killer-b,
That's why I said I'm sure that some of them are decent people, because I don't want to judge the whole group on the statements of a few members. I'm actually a pretty laid-back guy; I'm fine with people having different opinions, but bigotry and hatred make me want to speak out. I thought speaking our minds was what this forum was for. (The only meds I'm on is coffee, and if I double that, I'll end up posting twice as much )

HRK,
No reports of actual violence yet, but several of them have actually made violent threats, and some of them are registered KKK members, so I don't think I'm out of line in thinking that a bunch of heavily armed guys with a lot of free time on their hands could be potentially dangerous.

SPORTSTERBOY,
I respect your opinions and I think you've got some important things to say, but your posts are really hard to read. Could you lay off the CAPS key? I realize you don't mean it that way, but it seems like you're yelling when it's all upper case like that.


Added later:
The tone of voice that I have in mind must not come across in my writing, since it looks like I'm p*ssing people off here, and I'm sorry about that. In my mind, we're having a good natured debate, and I really get into debating. Some of my writing may be coming across as a lot more hostile than I mean it.

Please imagine everything I write with a smile and a wink and a round of beer. We're just a bunch of bikers shooting the breeze here.

The media picking the most ignorant, redneck, illiterate person to interview? Our blessed media? Sure they do: just like when a tornado hits or some other diasater happens They don't find the accountant that just lost the 500K house and his 2 Mecedes.....they interview some guy whose trailer just got blown away. The one in a white Tshirt with gravy stains and a wad of RedMan chew in his lip. Him and his wife...the fat sloppy one with no front teeth, her 3 little Bubbas with dirty faces holding her legs. "Yes sir it was terrble! I seed it comin and I yelled at Dolly May here git the yunguns and git under the pick up...thank God we had a dually!"
The media has an agenda. One way to press that agenda is to color the publics views of an issue with the images they present. As to whether any of the Minutmen are rascists...I don't know and don't really care. Racism, like sexism, homophobia and the rest are stupid...but they are also opinions. And holding an opinion, however stupid or unpopular is OK. If you want to hate old tattooed Harley riding grey bearded farts like me....that is your right. Disliking someone or the way they live or what they do is not a crime....at least not yet. Acting on the dislike and causing someone grief is. As Oliver Wendall Holmes said " Your right to flail your fists around ends at the tip of my nose", Seems we have forgotten that. There is NOONE that doesn't hold some predjudice. Predjudice simply means to PRE judge. We all do it all the time. We look at a persons clothes and decide what sort of person they are and what their income is. We see a man and woman arguing and form opinions. We see a movie trailer and decide we don't like the film. I have predjudices....I don't like whiny people, kids or adults. I don't like TV in fact I stayed a bachelor for decades because I would start dating some girl and find she spent more time in front of the Zombie box than she did reading. Big deal. It is not our feelings and thoughts that are important. It is whether we can put those aside and treat others fairly. That is all that is asked of any judge on the Supreme Court...can you, regardless of personal views points, go by the law, and uphold that. Same with cops and most other people.....

Ride Free.....

[CD]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

Thanks everybody for the information. I've got a much fuller picture of what's going on with the Minutemen now.

I'm not sure why people think I'm singling out the Minutemen as racists. Of course there are racists in all racial groups (some of those Aztlan "La Raza" types are really hateful.) The reason I only mentioned the racists among the Minutemen is that the Minutemen were the subject of conversation, and I think their motivations are important to understand.


But we've already got different quotas and different entry requirements for people from different countries. I think Mexico being our neighbor is a legitimate reason to give them special status, if only because of the practical problems involved in securing such a long border, combined with the fact that so many of them are already here illegally and we don't have anywhere near the money or the manpower to round them all up and send them all back. Anything we do is going to be "like trying to plug a leak in a dam with a thumb."


But we already look hypocritical. We're a nation that was founded on the idea of taking in anyone who wanted to come, and now we're slamming the door in people's faces.

I know this is idealistic and naive, but one of the reasons I'm proud to be an American is that we're a nation of immigrants*, taking in anyone who wanted freedom, and made strong by taking the best parts of every immigrant culture we've blended together. I realize that there's no practical way we can take in everybody who wants to come anymore, but if we aren't going to keep Lady Liberty's promise, we really should be honest with ourselves and take down the @&%# statue. We've still got the beacon of Liberty lit, but when people answer her call, we tell them it was a limited-time offer. I don't know the answer, but it bothers me when my fellow citizens start thinking it's patriotic to keep out the people who are coming here seeking the same things their own ancestors came here seeking.



*(and some people who were brought here in chains, but that's a different issue.)

Quotas and limitations are present in a lot of countries. Australia, France, Belgium for example. Do we fault them for attempting to manage population growth? I do realize that Mexico is our neighbor since it is just 75 miles or so down the road.

In reality it is not about quotas or prejudice but it is about what is lawful and unlawful. We keep dancing around the fact that we are supposed to be a nation of laws and those laws and beliefs are the glue of our nation. It is illegal to cross the border anywhere but through a portal. It is illegal to hire those that are not here legally. Why do many people find this so difficult to understand? This is as clear as a cup of spring water drawn up in the Rockies. Liberals and others want to muddy the water with if and or butts much like they would draw the water from the Colorado river.

It is impossible to allow every single person that wants to immigrate into the USA. Some system has to be in place to regulate the rate of growth. We cannot even take care of our own poor people and that is a shame. Let's say you can take in 10,000 men, women and children. Make 2,000 of those children below the age of 16. Of the remaining 8,000 make about 1,000 elderly grand parents that are too old or unable to work. We now have 7,000 working age healthy men and women that are anxious to work. Just for conversations sake, let's say 4,000 are married and 3,000 single. How many of these would have employable skills? Of the 7,000 we might get 1,000 that have high enough skills to be able to earn enough to support themselves and a small family. What about the remaining 6,000? Even if you allow for 3,000 of them to be able to combine incomes and support a small family, you still have 3,000 that go onto the welfare rolls. How many times can we do that before we go broke? What about the 1,000 elderly folks?

The Statue of Liberty has the poem:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these — the homeless, tempest-tossed — to me;
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door.

We have to realize that it is a poem not a law or even a policy. The statue was dedicated to the US by France in 1886. In the 1880's, this country could absorb immigrants by the ship full. However, of those who immigrated the majority were self sufficient and would go west to form new communities. It is unfortunate that today, the percentage of self sufficient immigrants is much lower. The 1880's were in some ways almost impossible to thrive and in other ways, much simpler to live. The complexity of today's society makes surviving and supporting family much more difficult esp. for an unskilled laborer. As a result, they have to collect support in order to survive and the circle keeps on going around.