[SK]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

I'm certainly not blaming the Minutemen for the problem, but by their presence they are creating a dangerous situation where there wasn't one before. You may believe it's worth the risk, but surely you can see that the potential for violence is reduced if they're not there.

I don't know about that. Not stopping many illegals who come over here and not only cost us taxpayers a ton of money, they're several who commit crimes..that's violence that could've been stopped.

[GreyBear]

Big Ben wrote:The situation is like this: there's a busy road with no crosswalks, and on one side of the road are a bunch of guys who haven't eaten for days. On the other side of the road is a guy with a big sign that says "Free Sandwiches!" We're blaming the hungry guys for jaywalking (They're breaking the law ) when it seems to me that if you bust the guy offering the sandwiches, and maybe put up a crosswalk somewhere, the jaywalking problem gets mostly solved.


One of the best summations of why we ought to be going after the businesses that knowingly hire illegals....still don't agree with some of your other points but that there hits the nail on the head.
Ride Free.....

[SPORSTERBOY]

How Bout That Border Jumper Smugglin Imigrants The Other Day In San Diego. We Need More Like Him, Skip The Transport Just Shoot!

[hotroadking]

I'm certainly not blaming the Minutemen for the problem, but by their presence they are creating a dangerous situation where there wasn't one before. You may believe it's worth the risk, but surely you can see that the potential for violence is reduced if they're not there.

First list any violent act by a minuteman against anyone. Zero Nada. They only increase the potential for problems if one of the illegals attacks them, if they were an aggressor force then yes they would increase the potential. You argument is similar to saying we shouldn't have neighborhood watch programs because it increases the odds that the criminals coming into our neighborhood will end up in a gun fight with LEO's or anyone because we would call the police, or we shouldn't have guns in our homes because we could shoot someone. Doesn't fly.

Sorry again why are legal US citizens that feel it's proper to alert the authorities of the illegal crossings the ones increasing the risk. The illegal aliens crossing increase the risk, without them we don't have an issue, again you take law abiding citizens and focus on them for being the problem.

The mexicans/whomever illegally crossing escalate the issue.

The other problem I see is that you're acting like it's the immigrants who are the cause of the problem, when they wouldn't come here if people weren't hiring them.

So we're to blame for the illegal action, we should stop offering jobs?. Sorry that's the blame society for the poors ills argument and it doesnt wash. Hey lets close the cities on the borders, empty the border states and remove the jobs so they won't come in. Wouldnt help. These people go anywhere.

I do agree with you about penalizing the employers and I agree about more help on the border.

However we need to focus on the fact that America doesn't have a sign up on the border that says free jobs, it says stay out or come in legally.

Again enjoy the conversation, and don't agree with most of what you say, and I figure it's the same for you, so we have to agree to disagree.

[Big Ben]

SK,
Good point. I was talking about violence at the border, but overall you're probably right.

HRK,

So we're to blame for the illegal action, we should stop offering jobs?

Not "we", just the scumbags who hire these people at less than a legal wage and take advantage of their desperation.

However we need to focus on the fact that America doesn't have a sign up on the border that says free jobs, it says stay out or come in legally.

When there are thousands of jobs being advertised, it doesn't matter what it says at the border. And you keep saying "come in legally" when I've pointed out several times that we're not even giving them the option of coming in legally--we're busting people for jaywalking when there's no crosswalk.

We need to remember that these are people living in countries without decent welfare or unemployment relief systems. You work or you starve, and there are no jobs available. I don't blame those who choose to break an arbitrary border law so they can work to feed their families. I'd do the same in their situation, and I'll bet you would too.

Again enjoy the conversation, and don't agree with most of what you say, and I figure it's the same for you, so we have to agree to disagree.

Life would be boring if we agreed about everything. I realize these are sensitive issues, especially for those of you living in border states, and I really appreciate you putting up with some weirdo lecturing at you from across the ocean here.

[SPORSTERBOY]

If The War On Terrorisim Is So Important, Then Why Are Our Borders Open. If Hundreds Or Thousands Make It Across Every Day, Who Is To Say How Many Are Really From Mexico And Not Terrorist. You Would Think That If Someone As Simple As Me Can See This, Then So Should Big Brother.

[CD]

The one worry I had when starting this thread was the possibility of a flame war since their are so many opposing views and opinions.

I am very impressed and very proud of our members for how they have treated each other with the respect yhey deserve.

Thank you for keeping this a thread with great discussions and even some ideas being thrown around

[scooter]

This ain't my fist forum, either, and I also am impressed with the ability of those here to argue and disagree without disrespecting and degenerating into throwing darts.

Of course, when I view it through the filter of the fact the we all have two wheels in common, then I ain't so surprised after all!!

Again, good job on the debates guys, keep it real.

scoot

[goats_hogs]

Ok, I've read the replies, watched but not participated. Can't stay out and not speak my mind any longer. This issue goes much deeper than the surface, and many things are happening that are not even being mentioned yet. Please stay with me, and allow the ramblings....

I agree that at one time this country needed to grow, and could accept many others from other countries. As more work goes out of the country, it is harder to make a living by those that choose to work here. As more illegals come in, taking work from willing people here, we get that much closer as a society to a poverty level. I don't blame them for wanting to come here. They are treated better with schooling, welfare, and being allowed to protest than I am as a middle aged white male.

Too many people are here that are on entitlements and have that mindset already.... IE: I'm entitled to being taken care of and having a place to stay, food to eat, and all will be paid by the taxpayer. I don't mean to step on toes, and this is only spoken in general. Look at New Orleans, and the general mentality of those displaced. We had a familiy we took in in my small town from there, and covered all their bills for a year so they could get on thier feet again. All food, utilities, housing, even some spending money was provided.... mostly thru churches and donations. The year was up last month, and they went back to New Orleans. Left the house in terrible shape, all carpet will need replaced (was new when they moved in) took the furnature that was put into the house for them to use, I could go on, but why? You see my point.

As for the illegals taking only the lower paying jobs, that's not entirely true either. Many are working as welders, on building contruction. Many are taking carpenter jobs local for cash. Many are skilled, and are hard workers. But they are taking jobs from americans willing to work, and they are still illegals.

One more important point. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere here. I noticed a billboard coming into Muncie, Ind this morning on my way to work. It had two Hispanic women, looking out and smiling. It had writing on it, but I don't speak spanish.... that's what it's written in. Am I the only one alarmed by this? The national anthem is now in spanish. Billboards are in spanish. Call a credit card number, or any major lumber store (Lowes, Home Depot, ect) and you have the choice of English or Spanish. Why do we cater to them at all? Aren't all that come to accept American citizenship to be required to speak our language? I'm not going to get preachy here, but read the part in the Bible about Babel. God realized that man was learning at an alarming rate, and was going to be capable of things too quickly, so He made it so they had different languages and couldn't think as one because of communication gaps.

A common language is one of the key elements in commerce, relationships and all other important aspect of life. Without that common ground, our common society can not function. If we continue on our track to be bilingual, we will weaken as society, not strengthen. We already have a language here, we don't need to change it to suit anyone. Adapt to us, not the other way. Remember, America is where they are wanting to come. If they go thru proper channels, and become citizens here, then they should adapt to our ways, and be able to sustain and contribute to society. Not be a burden, like many are. We talk of the "Cheap labor" but how much is it really costing? After you figure in the free schooling, the free medical, the food and other programs they illegals are using?

I don't consider myself to be racist. If you are American, that's it. Not Hispanic-American, Afro-American, or whatever. You don't like it here, leave. I'll not stop you. I don't owe Repartitions to anyone. My Granddad was a share cropper, raised 11 children, and they had a very hard life too. I don't want to change our language to Spanish. If you are here legally, contribute. If you are not able, and are here legally, we will help you. But if you are just lazy, and want to be cared for, it doesn't cut it with me. No matter the color of your skin.

Sorry for the ramble. I should have jump in sooner. Many may not read my post, as it's too long. But it's from the heart.

[chucktx]

i read it and agree.........thanks
chuck

[Old Fart on 87FLH]

I read it too, and agree with what your saying, but another thing that will have to be addressed is the position of the Mexican government. At some point our leaders,i.e Congress, is going to have to make it clear to Mexico that we're their friends,but the corruption in their govm't must stop,and if they don't provide an economic situation whereby their own citizens can have jobs with liveable incomes,there will be no more "aid" from us.
As it is now, about the only option for the poor is to try to sneak over the border illegally and find work here,and send an incredible amount of money back to Mexico. We're by default fueling their economy with illegally gotten money,and you bet your ass Pres Fox knows it and is happy with it! Until that changes, we're going to have a border problem....there,I'm done, i'll step down from my soap box now.

[Big Ben]

goats_hogs,
I didn't think your post was too long(at least not compared to mine), and you made a lot of good points. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but a few things need to be said about the language issue.

I'm a linguist by training and by trade, so I understand the value of having a common language, but I think a lot of people don't understand just how hard it is to learn another language.

Just from my experience: I speak Japanese like a native, but I didn't when I got here, and for the first few years I was really thankful that a lot of businesses and government agencies made English translations available. In fact, the availability of English langauge materials made it easier for me to learn Japanese. Even now, when I go out with my American friends, we speak to each other in public in English, and I'm sure it makes some Japanese people feel uncomfortable to not understand what we're saying, but we have the right to use our own language among ourselves. If someone came at me saying "You're in Japan. Speak Japanese or go home!" my response would not be a polite one.

I know it seems like there are huge numbers of people who don't want to learn English, but the actual statistics tell a different story. The vast majority of immigrants are learning English as fast as they can, and their kids will all speak English. It's just not reasonable to expect people to speak perfect English the instant they set foot on American soil. If they've been in the States ten years and still don't speak basic English, that's a problem, but if they just got here, cut 'em a little slack. Most people are learning the best they can.

When it comes to advertising or businesses offerering Spanish services, hey, that's capitalism. Businesses answer to their customers, and they have the right to do what they want.

I don't think schools should be teaching bilingually except to teach English skills, and no one has a "right" to materials in their own language, but providing help where it's needed is just basic kindness. The final goal should be to get everyone able to understand English, but helping them out along the way is not a bad thing.

[CD]

BB,

But, they do teach bilingual classes and, several efforts have been made over the years to make Spanish a required course. And, there are many Mexicans that do not want their children to speak English as their primary language. The school where my grandchildren attend class does not enforce federal laws regarding English only teaching and teach courses in Spanish...go figure.

In a couple of posts you referred to the Statue of Liberty and it's meaning. Did you know that it was not originally meant to represent anything more than the friendship of France and America?

http://www.americanparknetwork.com/p...y/liberty.html

Misconception and myth has transformed a gift of friendship between two nations into an entirely different thing. Just another one of those oddities that gets it's own life. The Statue of Liberty was meant to show the rest of the world that the USA was an example of a free country.

Laboulaye during the dinner when the idea first was formed said:

As he continued speaking, reflecting on the centennial of American independence only 11 years in the future, Laboulaye commented, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if people in France gave the United States a great monument as a lasting memorial to independence and thereby showed that the French government was also dedicated to the idea of human liberty?"

So you see, sometimes things are not what they appear to be at all. Sometimes we have our perceptions manipulated over the years.

[Big Ben]

But, they do teach bilingual classes and, several efforts have been made over the years to make Spanish a required course.

That's what I meant when I said it shouldn't be a "right". If we choose to learn Spanish or provide information in Spanish, that's kindness, and I think it's a good thing, but it should never be required.

there are many Mexicans that do not want their children to speak English as their primary language.

If they also speak fluent English, what business is it of ours what language they speak at home? I agree that it's important to have a common language, but I don't think we have the right to enforce that in private homes.


About Liberty, I knew about some of the history of the statue, and that the famous poem was added later. But Lady Liberty has become a powerful symbol, and the meaning of symbols often has very little to do with their origins. For example, the swastika was a originally religious symbol in Buddhist and Native American traditions, but today it has a very different meaning.

While the Statue of Liberty was originally a symbol of France and the US' friendship and dedication to liberty, she quickly became a powerful beacon to people all over the world, even for those of us who don't like the French at all. I wouldn't say people's perceptions were "manipulated" so much as that the meaning just naturally changed over the years.

[goats_hogs]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

goats_hogs,
The vast majority of immigrants are learning English as fast as they can, and their kids will all speak English. It's just not reasonable to expect people to speak perfect English the instant they set foot on American soil. If they've been in the States ten years and still don't speak basic English, that's a problem, but if they just got here, cut 'em a little slack. Most people are learning the best they can.

BB, no problem with most of what you've said since my post. I do agree with the above, with a reservation. The test is in simple English, and they must at least comprehend that to become a citizen in the first place. I don't expect, nor did I say they must always speak English, even when in the privacy of their own home. Nor did I say that it wouldn't be a generous and an act of kindness for us to learn another language. If they are here legally as a citizen, they should be able to at least speak and read English in the most basic form.

I just get tired of small groups with loud voices getting all the attention of our gov't, our laws, and the media. The majority of the nation wants the illegal flow stopped. The majority of the nation isn't gay, homosexual or lesbian, and doesn't want marriage between them recognized (or to see it taught as an alternate lifestyle). The majority of the nation didn't want the ten commandment removed from gov't properties. How long do we stand around and wait, while bit by bit, our country is picked away from beneath us?

Pussification of America. We need to stand up against some of this at some point, or we will stand up for nothing. Freedom is never free, to have it you must be willing to take a stand.

[SK]

I'm not necessarily a huge Lou Dobbs fan, but his article today, especially on immigration sure seems to hit home. Who are Congress and our president really working for here?

From Lou Dobbs on today's CNN:

"Illegal aliens are more important to this Congress than securing our borders and our ports, more important than those legal immigrants who have waited in line and who follow the law. The Senate has added to the litany of lunacy that makes up what it calls reform: Illegal aliens would only have to pay back taxes on three of the past five years, they will not be prosecuted for felonies such as identity theft or purchasing or using fraudulent Social Security cards, and unlike millions of visa holders who have to leave the country to have them renewed, they may simply remain in the United States while this Congress and this president give away all the benefits and privileges of American citizenship.

This is an outright assault in the elitist war on the middle class. And working men and women who've already borne the pain of losing good-paying manufacturing jobs and having middle-class jobs outsourced to cheap foreign labor markets are faced with the onslaught of more illegal immigration and cheap labor into the American economy. This president and Congress talk about bringing illegal aliens out of the shadows while they turn out the lights on our middle class."

full article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/23/dobbs.may24/index.html

[hotroadking]

Here in FL they pay extra for teachers that are bilingual, they have books and classes and tests in spanish, FCAT can be taken in spanish, you can get any form you want from the Govt in spanish.

It seems like there could be some type of conversion timeframe but what happens is the hispanics as a whole do not help their kids convert to english. They speak only spanish at home and get offended when questioned by teachers about their kids lack of performance, they blame a lack of hispanic books, tests, questions and teachers.

My sis in law is a teacher here , I know the real scoop about the problem.

Administrators and legislators bow to minority pressure in order to maintain office positions. Elections are close and a few thousand Hispanic votes can change an election so our elected officials vote with their paychecks.

In any event as I've said, amnesty is a bad idea. You cannot police it properly, deportations based on a stop date for illegally crossing the border will end up clogging the courts with ACLU challenges.

It's better if you do all or none, I vote to remove them all.

Not because I am a racist, or bigot or against hispanics at all, illegal activity, nationally and publically rewarded tells our children that if you cry loud enough, no matter how illegal or wrong it might be, strength in numbers can force officials to turn laws to your favor in order to keep their jobs.

God I hope someone good runs for President- Independent party! LOL

[CD]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

........I wouldn't say people's perceptions were "manipulated" so much as that the meaning just naturally changed over the years.

That wasn't exactly my point. The point was, and is that the statue became known as the welcoming beacon of immigration over time and constant reference to it. Have you ever noticed that nowhere does it mention "welcome beacon for illegal aliens"?

By manipulation I am referring to the manipulation by the press. Name a subject that is a hot button issue and I guarantee you that the networks will twist the story the way they want you to hear it. Whether it is Minutemen or the illegal alien smugglers (coyotes) or the legacy of Clinton, you will not hear the unbiased truth. What you hear is a fraction of the truth and only enough of a balance to keep it from being overly blatantly one sided. Notice I did not say Liberal or Conservative here as both are guilty.

Some of us are too close to the issue and many more are spoon fed network news slanted the way they want it. Where is the balance?

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that until recently there was an all Spanish grade school here. The only reason it was shut down was flight safety because it is under the approach path of DM. Think about it for a second. Why would you need an all Spanish school in America? Do we have all Chinese schools in San Fransisco? Italian schools in NY? What good does it do to not equip these young people with the tools to cope and live in America? Are English speaking people supposed to learn Spanish? Chinese? Vietnamese? Are the citizens of Hawaii supposed to learn Japanese due to the influx of tourists? To some degree it would behoove a shop owner to learn a little of the language. However, does it not lie with the citizen to speak the language of the majority and not insist on Americans learning Spanish or Chinese or Timbucktou for that matter. As I said in an earlier post, when you are in a foreign land, learning the basic language skills helps out immensely as you have pointed out.

Go to a Mickey D's and try to understand some of the workers there. It is incredible what is happening. Go to DMV and see the ratio of Caucasian to Mexican employees....it is not the ratio you think it is. Apply for a job, any job in a city in the SW and guess what the results will be.

Slowly, surely, they manipulate the perception of what is going on. If the line is not drawn here, where is it drawn?

The issue is not lady liberty as she still represents both the original intent and what it has become to mean, welcoming legal immigrants. The issue is our security, our borders, our lands, our rights and realizing that the bottom line is that when you are in a country illegally you have no entitlements to anything other than basic human rights.

You mentioned that all Americans are immigrants. Not to my way of thinking. Long before this was ever a country, there were those that were the founding fathers and original citizens.


USAGE NOTE Migrate, which is used of people and animals, sometimes implies a lack of permanent settlement, especially as a result of seasonal or periodic movement. Emigrate and immigrate are used only of people and imply a permanent move, generally across a political boundary. Emigrate describes the move relative to the point of departure: After the Nazis came to power in Germany, many scientists emigrated (that is, left Germany). By contrast, immigrate describes the move relative to the destination: The promise of prosperity in the United States encouraged many people to immigrate (that is, move to the United States).

In order to be an immigrant, you would have first needed to have a country to immigrate to. The founding fathers and originally citizens migrated to North America.

A technicality but an important one because it illustrates a slight deception used by some pundits as leverage to convince us that what is happening should be accepted.