[scooter]

I think maybe I stole your script, as it is what I have been telling my troops for weeks now since it has become such a hot issue (long overdue for the timing on that, BTW), and word for word, you touched on just about everything I tell 'em. I am now facing a deployment to the border area, which is fine, and will finally be able to put some action to words.

all for now.

scoot

[goats_hogs]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

goats_hogs,

The majority of the nation thinks Harleys are too loud and helmets should be mandatory. The majority is often wrong.

The majority used to believe the sun rotated around the Earth. The majority was in favor of slavery. The majority was against giving women the vote. The majority favored miscegenation laws when Loving v. Virginia was decided. The majority in the south was in favor of Jim Crow when the civil rights laws were passed.

The founders set up our country to be a nation of laws under the Constitution to protect against the tyranny of the majority, and history has shown that they were wise to do so. If the majority wants to deny homosexuals their basic rights, or use government money to push their religion in people's faces, the Constitution says they're wrong. If it's time to take a stand, I stand on the side of the Constitution, equality, and freedom.

Yes, I agree, the majority is often wrong. I'm not against homosexuals having basic rights, I said marriage. I did not say that Gov't money should be used to push religion. Many of the Ten commandments that are on gov't property were put there decades ago. This country was founded because of wanting religious freedom without persecution. The commandments were there because of the majority of our nations leaders believed in them at least when they were put there. To remove them now costs money too. As for the constitution, show me where it says that a basic right of homosexuals is marriage.

However, my point was, is and continues to be, this is a democratic society, and right or wrong, the majority rules. Otherwise, it's not a free society at all, it's dictatorship of some type.

[hotroadking]

It's amazing to me how people turn an initative to stop illegal immigration into a constitutional question about civil rights, religion, government intervention and a poem on a statue in a harbor.

I would vote to keep the discussion on illegal immigration but I may be a minority, hey I should call the ACLU to represent me and type in CAPS TO MAKE MY POINT KNOWN!

The issue at hand is how to handle the large number of illegal immigrants in the country today, and, how to control the borders to prohibit additional illegal activity be it drugs, or just crossing the border improperly.

Some points that are overlooked or overshadowed are:

American's doesn't care you want to come here - we still welcome all
Most American's doesn't want people to cross illegally
American's want the border secure
We would like controls that keep the flow orderly and legal.

So lets not make it into something it isn't which is hatred or bigotry by white Americans against mexican's crossing the border religous persecution or what classification is of the founding fathers.

We could always segway into constitutionality, I'm sure it could and will be argued in the supreme court over this bill, in any form. However I personally don't agree that just because you are inside the border of the United States that you are entitiled to any of it's constitutional protections.

[Big Ben]

We've gone way off topic, and this should probably be a separate thread, but goats-hogs brought it up, so I'll just make two points:
1.

Many of the Ten commandments that are on gov't property were put there decades ago.

The most high profile Ten Commandments case was when Roy Moore installed a new monument in 2001 in direct violation of the Constitution and a federal court order. That was a direct attempt to use tax money and government power to establish religion, and a violation of the fist amendment. If it cost money to take it back down, that's Moore's fault. Most of the older monuments are being left in place.

2.

I'm not against homosexuals having basic rights, I said marriage.

Marriage is a basic right. In 1967, the Supreme Court wrote unanimously in Loving v. Virginia:
"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."
The majority of Americans at the time opposed that decision, believing that races mixing was an abomination, but the court decided to follow the Constitution rather than popular opinion. A few decades later, pretty much everyone recognizes that the Court was right. The same will eventually happen with equal rights for homosexuals.

If those miscegenation laws were still in effect, I wouldn't have been able to marry my non-white wife, and that would seriously p*ss me off. That makes me sympathetic to others who aren't allowed to marry the person they fall in love with. Freedom and the pursuit of happiness are what America is all about, and we shouldn't be denying that to anybody.

Sorry for going off topic.

[goats_hogs]

BB and all, I too apolgise for drifting off topic. My only point of bringing up anything that I had spoken of was the "how to boil a live frog" type of thing. IE, throw a live frog in boiling water and it will jump out. Raise the temperature one degree at a time slow enough, and it will just sit the until it's boiled alive. We have been one degree'd enough, the illegal crossing is just one more degree.

BB, we agree on more things than you may realize. I do not care what color you or your wife are, it's the person within the skin that counts. That being said, I believe I'll just bow out, let the original topic resume.

Later, Brent

[hotroadking]

AInt politics fun!

How about some statue facts just for fun

The statue was a gift from France to the US for working together in the Revolutionary War.

It took several years to raise money the US paid for the pedestal and France the Statue. In fact the US didn't give enough money on it's own so Pulitzer (yep same as you think) took a direct approach lambasting the wealthy for not giving enough and the middle class for expecting the wealthy to pay all the costs of the pedestal. It worked and donations came in. (Sounds familiar huh)

The poem New Collossus was penned 3 years prior to the completion of the statue and two years prior to start of the project. It is on a plaque in the pedestal and it was placed there to commemorate the author who put a lot of work into the pedestals creation.

This from the Parks Departments web site

The "New Colossus": Famous sonnet written by Emma Lazarus in 1883. A bronze plaque, dedicated in memory of Emma Lazarus' contribution to the completion of the Statue's pedestal, has been affixed to the inner walls of the pedestal since the early 1900's. This plaque, currently located in the Statue of Liberty exhibit, has come to symbolize the statue's universal message of hope and freedom for immigrants coming to America and people seeking freedom around the world.

Interesting that it was penned prior to the statue.

[2fastnaz]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."

If marriage is fundamental to our very existance and survival , it must be hetero. Homosexuals can't reproduce.

One other thing to Big Ben, I lived in Japan for 5 years (Navy) I never met a JN under 60 that didn't speak english and found the Japanese poeple to be, on the whole, the most honorable and honest people on the face of this earth. Hell for 5 years I didn't have a lock on the front door to my home. Comparing anything that happens in Japan to what's happening in Mexico or on the boarders is comparing apples to kiwis.

[Big Ben]

2fastnaz, I'm trying to get back on topic, but:

If marriage is fundamental to our very existance and survival , it must be hetero. Homosexuals can't reproduce.

You've never heard of adoption or artificial insemination? Sterile couples and people too old to have kids are allowed to marry. A right is a right.
And with that, I'm dropping this. If anyone wants to continue the marriage discussion, please start a new thread.

goats_hogs,

BB, we agree on more things than you may realize.

I'm sure we do. And I definitely think you made a good point about boiling a frog. Sorry to nitpick about the details.

HRK,
That's really interesting.
I just assumed the poem was newer since I knew the plaque was added later.
Learn something new every day.

[hotroadking]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

HRK,
That's really interesting.
I just assumed the poem was newer since I knew the plaque was added later.
Learn something new every day.

A little googleducation

[Texas Road Glide]

as a native texan.........your not stopping the immagants from coming to the states........they well do what ever means it ttakes to get here........with that said.....the should fine and jail people who hire these immagrants........and i mean a fat fine...one that hurts....and if they get cought doing it again.....a long jail sentance......that would bring it to a hault real quick........then honest hard working people could actually get paid what they deserve...........instead of having to worry about 3 or 4 mexicans doing it for the same price........or cheaper........it would really be nice to be paid what i was actuaaly worth...instead of having to compete with the ilegals.......

what were the last words davey crocket said........at the alamo????

where did all these land scapers come from???????

[CD]

Sorry, I cannot agree with that. We stop Cubans and Haitians by the boat load down in Florida. We have the technological capability to build a secure border system. We can use REMBASS technology as I said in an earlier post.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/rembass.htm

We can use Infrared, radar UAV's and lighting with personnel posted at intervals. You can slow the crossings to probably less than 10% of what they are now. Without doing something, they will continue to cross. Talking will not get the job done.

For those that say it cannot be done, please argue with a valid point other than it "cannot" be done.

[bikerjim1]

My agreeance is with C.D., not because he's the Administrator of this site, but because HE"S RIGHT.
I.M.O.,Americans, shameful to say, have become passivists when it comes to issues such as the borders. Cry and complain as we do regarding these issues, no one seems to want to take an active run at actually trying to do something physical about the problem except debate the issues, in the meantime, the problem persists.
When this country was founded, it took blood, sweat and tears from dedicated men and women to get where we are today, but now all we want to do is "discuss and legislate" issues. C'mon, we can find enemy bunkers and hideouts in Afganistan and other countries we are trying to help liberate with the technology we as paxpayers have paid for, but when it comes to border issues for our own country, we want to talk about it? And the arrogance of the immigrants shows, by the protests they throw. THEY know we are passivists!
It's time once again for us to stand and take action, not discuss whether we should.

[bikerjim1]

I'm gonna have to stay off this page, it's gonna drive the blood pressure through the roof!! I'm not a politician. Just a biker with pride for the good OLD U.S.A.