[GreyBear]

Howdy, Just got back from Rolling Thunder, signed on and found this. Wow! Well, I am probably gonna step on some toes but it will be good natured stepping anyway.
As a lot of you know, I am originally from New Orleans, which has been, even before Gay meant homosexual instead of feeling happy and carefree, a place that homosexuals gravitate to. I have a lot of Gay friends, and have had for a long time. Two points usually surface when any talk of the Gay "agenda" come along. One is child abuse, the other is God. I'd like to weight in on both. There have been numerous studies on the child abuse issue and it is pretty much a done deal that a Gay or Lesbian person is not a child molester waiting to surface. A little research will actually show that because of the sheer number of hetrosexual people vs homosexual people the total number of straight vs gay child molesters really shoots holes in that argument. Moving to the "God" argument.....to begin which God and whose God and which version are you talking about? If that makes you sputter your coffee, stop and realize that the Judeo-Christian version of God is only a small and relative new comer to the scene. And the "laws" that people speak of are from that particular flavor of religion....and that's like saying that vanilla is all Baskin Robbins has to offer. It also dpesn't take into consideration the WHY the whole original concept of Christianity as a state religion came into being. But such things are way beyond the scope of what we are discussing here. It is simply meant as a gentle reminder that not everyone thinks that the deity worshipped by Christians is the end all and be all when it comes to the devine. Just like some folks wouldn't trade thier crotch rocket for 3 of my SuperGlides.
So, if we are gonna talk about this issue, it needs to be a discussion based on facts, not on doctrine and dogma that many disagree with. The real deal is whether it is civil union, marriage or whatever...it is about economic and legal issues, not morality. Unless of course you consider it immoral that, in many cases, when a Gay partner dies, the parents that disowned him can step in and take over, even barring his partner from attending the funeral. That we should give respect and "sanctity" to Bubba and Ethel because the same day they dropped out of high school because she was pregnant they "did the right thing" and have provided the very best home that welfare can buy for thier younguns. But why extend such to the Gay professionals on the other side of town whose taxes help pay that welfare? Because it's the right thing to do is why. Just like it's the right thing to do to make sure that just none of our fallen heros have thier funerals screwed up because of what they liked to do in bed.
I am married. To a woman. That is our commitment to each other. And the idea that it could in somehow be lessened because Jim and Bob or Mary and Jane also could be "married" just seems silly to me. But then so does the whole idea of people killing each other to show that thier "God" is better than the other persons......

[FLHTbiker]

Hmmmm, I tried to open your web site for animals but, nothing there. I personally have never heard or seen a gay animal. If there was they are certainly not normal from the others.

Normal: Conforming to the standard or common type. regular, natural, 2. Serving to fix a standard. 3. Psycho-a. approximately average in any psychological trait. b. free from any mental disorder. quoting of course from Webster and`the college dictionary.

Abnormal: Not average, deviating from the normal.

So, here it is gay are abnormal.

They have the same rights already as anyone else has. I just don't think they need to be married or push there gay right on the normal society.
The majority of people in this country also are not in favor of gay marriage.

If they want to do there gay thing with each other let them. They have the right to have sex with the same sex, so who is stopping them doing that.
I simply say they are not of the norm as to what the vast majority of society is.

After what happened to this guy that I knew you cannot tell me that being gay is not about choice. I am not some holly roller bible thumping dude either. Just a normal guy who likes it that way.

Talking bike stuff is much more fun than this. Obviously you will disagree with me and that is your right, however you will not change the way I feel as the way I feel is normal.

Bob, Pat and I will be in Billings from the 25th to around the 3rd of July for the National HOG rally. Wished you were able to be there.

Well better get back to writing up this home inspection report.

And Ben, I'm done with this gay thing so carry on but without me.

[Big Ben]

It looks like my wikipedia link was broken. Here's the right one. Somehow I don't think the gay penguins made a "choice".

Greybear,
You said it better than I did. Especially this part:

I am married. To a woman. That is our commitment to each other. And the idea that it could in somehow be lessened because Jim and Bob or Mary and Jane also could be "married" just seems silly to me.

Exactly. Ask people in Canada whether they feel their marriages mean any less now that they're tainted by adding those scary gays to the club.


Marc G,

I still don't understand why you're so obsessed with the idea of "normal". "Normal" has nothing to do with morality or legality or equality. I, for one, have no desire to ever be "normal". "Normal" is for people with no imagination.

They have the same rights already as anyone else has. I just don't think they need to be married or push there gay right on the normal society.

These two sentences contradict each other. Which is it? Do they have rights or don't they?

Look, I'm not trying to convince you that homosexuality is morally right--That's between gay people and their God. What I'm saying is that in America we have this thing called the Constitution which guarantees equal rights to everybody, even if what you think they do in the bedroom is icky.

Marriage is a basic human right, and it's cruel to deny it to people just because their behavior makes you feel uncomfortable. "They're yucky and they offend me" is not a constitutional justification.

If you don't want to talk about this any more, that's your right. But if you can't even be bothered to debate and educate yourself, please don't vote on this issue. The rights and happiness of real people are at stake, so it's irresponsible to say "well, I'm not changing my mind on this" and leave it at that.

[scooter]

Big Ben,

I'm wondering if there is a conflict between "perceived" and "granted" rights in this debate?

Granted "rights" are inherent to those whose "station" in life dictates they would embrace them.

A male chicken, hatched as a male chicken, has the right to crow. He has the right to strut, and to do his part to make more like him.

A male chicken, a rooster, does NOT however, have the right to start laying eggs, and sitting on them, and clucking.

He can CHOOSE to do this all day long....but it still doesn't make him a hen.

Nor can a hen hatched as a hen become a rooster. She could CHOOSE to act like one, but it ain't happenin'.

Look, I know y'all understand what I'm gettin' at, I won't presume to insult anyone's intelligence. I just was wondering if we're all gettin' hung up on semantics here or not.


I agree with those who have written that "you can't change being born black, or white, or yellow, etc"

I also agree with the sentiment to provide facts, either for or against the issue.

We are, collectively, as a nation, treading on very thin ice here. Our level of tolerance can be extended just how far?

Are we to be overrun with every variation and flavor of right and wrong, ultimately to fade away and become part of the ranks of the "has beens?"

Will it happen just because of the gay marriage issue...not likely.

But will it happen if there is no stand there, or a stand against the illegal immigration, or a stand against leniency towards hardened criminals, or a stand against the moral abyss our nation is steadily sliding towards, or a stand against too many issues to count?

Yes.

I don't have the exact right answer. I only know of ONE who does. I DO know that the "needs of the many"...

Incidentally, Big Ben, since you apparently reside in Japan, have you asked what the Japanese slant on this issue is? Seriously, I have no idea how the Japanese mind works, and am curious to know if there are even categories such as liberal and conservative there. The only things I know about the Japanese are what my Grandpa used to tell me from his experiences 1944-1946.

all for now, hope to hear from ya...

scoot

[FLHTbiker]

Ben, I'm educated on it all right and I will never change my view point.

I think you need to broaden your horizons and sometimes ride with differing points of view.

I to would wonder what the Jap views on it is. Mine won't change no matter how weird the penguins get. You ever think that maybe the penguins don't care who he or she snuggles up with as it's friggen cold where there at, me I like snuggling with Pat my wife (a women).

Marc Gibson
A Rose City HOG Road Captain
And Proud to be a straight American.

[Big Ben]

Scooter,
I'm not sure I understand your point. Roosters don't have the right to lay eggs because roosters don't have the ability to lay eggs. And they couldn't choose to no matter how much they wanted.

Humans weren't meant to fly, or move around on wheels, or talk to people living on the other side of a big ocean by banging pieces of plastic. All of these things are against nature, but there's nothing immoral about them, and I think we'd all agree that it's a little strange to want to make them illegal, or to restrict anyone's rights for doing these things.

I'm sympathetic to your view that we have to draw the line somewhere on the things that are bringing our society down, but marriage is one of the things that strengthen society. Allowing more people to marry and form stable families seems like a good way to push back the tide.


Not that I think Americans should change our attitudes to match Japan, but just for information since the question was asked: The general attitude here is that gays are a little weird, but interesting and funny and sort of cool. It's still not easy for most gays to come out since some people think it's strange, but there's none of the irrational hatred that gays get in America.

Conservative and liberal don't fall out along the same lines on the same issues, but people are people, so the tendencies are similar. Nothing like the Dem/Repub two party system though.


Marc G,
About the penguins, the article said that they "refuse to pair with females when given the chance", so it isn't just about staying warm.

You claim to be educated on this issue even though I've shown you on this very thread that you had basic facts wrong. And "I will never change my view point" is just another way of saying "I've stopped thinking." That's not something to be proud of. An intelligent person changes their viewpoint when they learn new facts.

I think you've been riding with the wrong group to long.

I think I've been polite throughout this discussion, and that remark is way out of line. Say what you want about me, you have no business insulting my brothers. At the very least, try to have the decency to respect CD's wishes and keep this board polite.

[scooter]

Ben,

I hear ya, and thanks for the educated reply. Interesting to note the Japanese reaction to the issue.

Personally, I may be about out of juice on this one, but I definitely have enjoyed seeing how points of view have been articulated.

You have an acute mind, I can definitely respect that.

Talk to ya soon.

scoot

[GreyBear]

Seems to me that the whole idea of normal is pretty thin. Normal is what is acceptable by a certain culture at a certain time. In some cultures head hunting and cannibilism is "normal". It was once "normal" to look at everyone on a motorcycle as a drunken, drug crazed, psycho who would rape your daughters and slit your throats if you let them stay at your motel. At one time, slapping your wife because dinner was late was "normal". And in certain parts of the country, stringing a person up because they had the wrong color skin was considered "normal". In Nazi Germany, sending millions of Jews off to the gas camber was "normal". During the days of the Roman colliseum watching Christians torn apart was "normal" So "normal" just doesn't carry much weight with me. Just because something is accepted and condoned and considered normal doesn't mean much.
As to whether being Gay or Straight is something you are born into or learned behavior or whatever....what difference does it make? It is, just like biking all about being free to live your life like YOU want to. Gay isn't contagious. Neither is Straight. My philosophy has always been simple; Do what makes ya happy. As to being around Gay folks it's the same as being around Straight folks. If ya hit on me or hit on my old lady, it's a compliment. Somone thought the person hit on was interesting or sexy ( or about closing time just possibly available, lol) or whatever. The hitter is simply told no thanks. It isn't some big drama. Now if the unwanted attention continues then further steps may be necesary. That simple...

Ride Free

[FLHTbiker]

How is this then Ben

I think you need to broaden your horizons and sometimes ride with differing points of view.
Now I am not trying to insult you but it appears from your strong view point
that you have had some strong influence towards that direction.

I have personally seen what being gay did to a young man who made the choice to be gay and the price he paid. That is the reasons that I have based my view point on the subject.

Your quote: The general attitude here is that gays are a little weird, but interesting and funny and sort of cool. It's still not easy for most gays to come out since some people think it's strange, but there's none of the irrational hatred that gays get in America.

Now, Ben gays enjoy a pretty darn good freedom here in good old America. People in America are not running around beating up gays all of the time. Sure there are a few instances but very few. There is also a few instances of other people (white included) getting bashed by younger crowds and that's basically the individuals who do cause the problems whether there gay or not.

Gays here in Oregon have there own churches and they pretty much do as they please. They have a big parade every year through down town Portland. Which is fine they have that right. The big thing here is the majority of the people demo/Repub don't want gay marriage in their states or country. Gay marriage got a small foothold even in my state and it was over turned and now there is none and because of the way the gay community reacted to it there probably won't be any in the near forceable future.

The majority of the people simply don't want it and as the majority that is their right.

I won't even go back to this Penguin thing and if I say the wrong thing there its libel to set you off again. Besides the thought of having sex with a women on a slab of ice doesn't really excite me either.

To end this again, gays do have freedoms just not marriage and as I said before you will not change my mind.

Marc

[SK]

I hear ya on the normal thing GreyBear. There really is no such thing as normal. What's normal to one person isn't to another, and I don't care if it's a majority saying so. That's why minorities have rights, so that they're not dictated to by the majority for everything in their lives. That's why states like Montana get 2 US Senators right along with California..so they're not stepped on and pushed aside just because LA has more people than their whole state.

The first thing I learned in nursing school, is when you do an assessment on a patient, you never use the term "normal" in your documentation because there's no such thing as normal in a description. Explain it for what it is, but don't say it's normal because it's to open to interpretation or misinterpretation. I know one thing..I'm not normal and I'm **** proud of that. I may be a little crazy too, but I'm not insane..yet.

As far as marriage for gays, I don't think it's right. I fully believe they should be allowed contract agreements giving them the same type of rights when it comes to being eligible for medical coverage, inheritance, child custody..etc. My reasoning is if you allow gays to marry, then where does it stop? Why not allow polygamy to be legal again? What's the difference whether 2 people, 5 or 10 all married together? How about marrying your dog? That's my main reason. If you allow one deviation, then you have to allow all the deviations. It has nothing to do with what I think about gays, which I have no problem with as I've got several gay friends I think the world of.

So while I think marriage is between a man and a woman, I wouldn't go as far as pushing for a constitutional amendment against it. That's not right either and too narrow a subject to belong in the constitution. Leave it up to the states to decide is where I think it belongs. The feds take too many liberties as it is when it should be up to the states rights to make decisions. If a state votes to allow it, then I'll go along with it (as long as it's the people voting and not elected officials). But gay marriage may not be recognized in other states would be the catch.

One thing I don't get is why Congress is wasting so much time on the subject right now when more important things like the war in Iraq, homeland security and the immigration problem aren't being solved.

[Big Ben]

Scooter,

You have an acute mind

Who're you calling cute? I thought you were straight!

Kidding around aside, thanks for keeping it friendly.


Marc G,

I think you need to broaden your horizons and sometimes ride with differing points of view.

I ride with people of several different nationalities, of several different races, many different religions, social backgrounds, income levels, ages, and sexual orientations. I am open to new ideas and opinions and try to learn something new every day. Whereas you're arguing for denying people basic rights, judging people as "normal" or not, and saying "I won't ever change my mind." And I'm the one who needs to broaden my horizons? Check a mirror dude.

The majority of the people simply don't want it and as the majority that is their right.

No it's not. The majority does not have the right to deny the rights of the minority. That's why we have a Constitution.


SK,
I'm not as worried about the slippery slope as you are. Marriage is a contract, and contracts can only be made by consenting adults. Animals and minors can't legally give consent, so there's no slippery slope worry there. The current marriage laws are all binary in nature and would have to be substantially rewritten for multiple partners, whereas for same sex marriage they can be used as is.

Of course, those who are in favor of "traditional marriage" should be in favor of allowing polygamy. "One man, many women" was the main form of marriage for most of human history, and that's the one promoted in the Bible. I just think the bureaucratic overhead would be insane.

[scooter]

"One man, many women" was the main form of marriage for most of human history, and that's the one promoted in the Bible.

As an aside...did anyone take notice of how short lived some of those dudes were back then???? No need to wonder why!

I got more than I can handle with my own little stick of dynamite....sheesh!!

scoot

[Sleepy]

call me a traditionalist and polygamy doesn't quite fit the bill for me. I'm a bit lost on the debate your way. I should do some homework. I know we're going through quite the debate about same sex "marriages". It will be interesting how the house of commons will have the free vote on it. There's been a lot of thoughtful dialogue here ..a lot of it having to do with the separation of church and state...based on what I've learned through the media..and places such as this is how religion affects politics and policy. I find that Republicans ..[Conservatives up this way] tie into religious matters more closely than Democrats [Liberals up this way] To the best of my knowledge, your country..and mine, is still predominately Christian..thus observing important milestones of Christianity..not to disregard or disrespect other faiths but Christianity is the dominate faith. It would only be logical that a conservative government would work to keep those values intact as the religious right lobby has worked hard to put them there. democracy in action..the way it should be. In a civil ceremony you have a marriage contract. In a religious ceremony you have a union blessed by God. I think a Christian country with Christian values in a war fighting a foe that considers them to be immoral, corrupt..etc.... has no choice but to stress the Christian way of life. I think it would be bad politics to completely submit to the "demands" of the "minorities" it would only add fuel to the fire.
SK's right..this is a very slippery slope.

[SK]

I don't know about the laws being strictly binary. I still believe that if you give in to one minority (gays in this respect), then the other minorities are going to start pushing their agenda (polygamists). What's the difference in the numbers count? Don't they have rights just like anyone else? Who's to really say they're wrong too? I just believe if you start giving in to one than the others have a right to be counted also..and rightfully so. So..where does it stop?

Anyone watch the new HBO series "Big Love" these past few months? I think it's hilarious at times. I sure wouldn't want to have to deal with multiple wives..what a headache. But who's to say?

[Big Ben]

But really, the only thing this slippery slope could lead to is polygamy. Like I said before, animals and minors can't give consent, so there's no worry of people legalizing marrying your pet ferret or a 9 year old. Where do you draw the line? At consenting adults.

I know this is going to get me in all kinds of trouble here, but I don't personally have much of a moral problem with polygamy (though I certainly don't have the energy to try it myself) Most human societies in history have allowed polygamy, and the only negative effects are when they allow marrying underage girls, which wouldn't be an issue in the States. If consenting adults want to complicate their lives, that doesn't bother me much. It might even solve some of the problems we have with adultery.

My problem with polygamy is a practical one:the amount of laws and regulations that would have to be rethought and rewritten. Everything that is set up for one spouse--spouse visas for immigration, immunity from testifying and prosecution in criminal cases, hospital visitation, complications with inheritance law, tax complications, insurance complications--the list of stuff that would have to be changed goes on and on. Such a radical restructuring would need to have some serious benefits to society to justify the time and money it would cost.

That's also the main reason I'm in favor of marriage for same sex couples instead of "civil unions". The bureaucratic overhead with creating a whole new category would be a nightmare. As it is, just let people marry, and lots of people get lifelong happiness while no one is harmed. Sounds like win-win to me.

[FLHTbiker]

I see the whole moral issues as a big break down in society, in general. The best thing that could happen to the whole world not just the USA is better morals and judgment in all aspects of everyone's lives.
Well their goes another opened can of worms.

Society in general has lost much of their values and there is to much of this I don't care attitude anymore. When I was a kid growing up we could say see ya later Mom were going out to play and we would be gone for hours. You don't dare let your kids out of your sight now days. Why is it that there is so much more child molesters than ever before? It is not because they we in the dark or closet or what ever, there just was not that many around as there is today. I really think there has been positive steps in society but there also has been some steps backwards as well. Why do we need all of the porn shops popping up all over and close to schools? Look at the rampant predators that are out there now, why, what has happened to create all of it today. Sure some of it was hidden behind doors and not talked about much before, but there is just simply more of it going on in our society now.
I really feel it may very well be our moral values in society. If we don't have morals what do we have left.

[Big Ben]

The best thing that could happen to the whole world not just the USA is better morals and judgment in all aspects of everyone's lives.

You finally said something I can agree with 100%.

The difference is that for some reason you think it's immoral for two people to love each other, while I think it's immoral to deny people their rights.

Immorality is hurting people unnecessarily. Morality is living according to what you think is right, and treating people the way you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes. I just don't see how keeping people from getting married serves the cause of morality.

[FLHTbiker]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

You finally said something I can agree with 100%.

The difference is that for some reason you think it's immoral for two people to love each other, while I think it's immoral to deny people their rights.

Immorality is hurting people unnecessarily. Morality is living according to what you think is right, and treating people the way you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes. I just don't see how keeping people from getting married serves the cause of morality.

Hold on there there dude, I have never said it is immoral for two people to love each other. You putting words in my mouth I never said and that has gone far enough. Get on with life and get off this gay crap enough is enough.

I'm heading out to a bike rally this morning so I won't be responding to any more of your personal bashing which I won't any more anyway. You simple take something I say and twist it back into your corner to fit your needs. Done.

[FLHTbiker]

I don't know if this picture will work but I'll give it a try as it explains itsself.