[scooter]

Alright, gents:

Here it is...let's see if we can continue, in a CIVIL fashion, the debate started in a previous thread.

So,

Is homosexuality a basic right? Is it considered a pursuit of life, liberty, happiness? Should marriage mean the same thing for a gay couple as opposed to a straight couple?

Is being gay a choice? Or is it hereditary?

Bring the opposing views on, but do so with this CHALLENGE.

Support your arguements, however passionately you feel about them, with facts. Facts only.

If it's possible....heh heh heh

Now that I've done my best to play Devil's advocate...press on!

scoot

[hotroadking]

Let em marry, couple of years of Gay Divorce court and you'll see them wondering why they asked.

I think the real issue for homosexuals is they want the protections from courts, taxes, insurance, employers etc that married couples have more than marriage.

JMO but it has nothing to do with love or wanting to be married it's all about rights to insurance as a spouse, and any other benefits accorded heterosexual married couples.

[chucktx]

im not going there................
chuck

[brad101]

1, It is a choice
2. Marriage No, Civil Union with a contract I am ok with (as long as they have to get divorced and lose half their crap to get out of it )

[SPORSTERBOY]

What Is The World Coming Too! What's Next Hitche'n Up With Your Sister, Brother, O' I Forgot They Do That Already!

[Big Ben]

Choice? Of course not. Did any of you "choose" to like women?

I know I didn't. About the time I started growing hair on the family jewels, I started finding girls irresistible. I never weighed the pros and cons of liking girls; the demon in my pants made the decision for me. If I had a choice in the matter, there have been times when I would have chosen not to like women--life would be a lot easier sometimes without 'em--but I can't help myself. My gay friends all tell the same sort of story: they were just always attracted to people of the same sex. I don't see how that can be called a choice.

Frankly I don't see why it matters whether it's genetic, or the way people were raised, or the influence of Hollywood, or mind-control rays from flying saucers. The fact is that for whatever reason, some people are gay, and they've got the same rights as anyone else. Why not let people live their lives the way they want? It's not like letting them get married harms you in any way.

In America, everyone is supposed to have equal rights under the law. It's only fair that they should have the same legal protections and benefits as straight people.

[mwelych]

I respect your view Ben. It took a lot to say what you said. And I totally agree. I have a few gay friends too, and they say the same, it's not a choice. I too did not choose to like women, it just happened that way? Does that make me right or wrong?Some people would say "Yeah," and just like Ben I can think of a few instances where I may have been better off w/out that affinity for women. Does Joe Blow have a right to say who is wrong or right? I sure hope not. If so, then we might as well choose a communist leader for our next election. 'nuff said... Peace...

[SK]

I don't know about being able to state facts, but I do believe it's not just a choice. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of mankind and approximately 10% of the population is gay. While I agree pretty much with everything Big Ben says, I'm in Brad's view of not allowing marriage, but to allow contracts with similar benefits to marriage. A lifetime partner deserves to have the benefits of insurance, inheritance, etc.

It's kind of strange. I have a few gay friends that I enjoy partying with, but I do have some minor phobias. I finally watched Brokeback Mountain the other night (a female friend of mine has the DVD) and while I thought it was a very good and well done movie which deserved it's Oscar nominations, I surely had to look away and humm to myself (so I couldn't hear) during the one sex scene (that only lasted a few seconds).

[chucktx]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

Choice? Of course not. Did any of you "choose" to like women?

I know I didn't. About the time I started growing hair on the family jewels, I started finding girls irresistible. I never weighed the pros and cons of liking girls; the demon in my pants made the decision for me. If I had a choice in the matter, there have been times when I would have chosen not to like women--life would be a lot easier sometimes without 'em--but I can't help myself. My gay friends all tell the same sort of story: they were just always attracted to people of the same sex. I don't see how that can be called a choice.

Frankly I don't see why it matters whether it's genetic, or the way people were raised, or the influence of Hollywood, or mind-control rays from flying saucers. The fact is that for whatever reason, some people are gay, and they've got the same rights as anyone else. Why not let people live their lives the way they want? It's not like letting them get married harms you in any way.

In America, everyone is supposed to have equal rights under the law. It's only fair that they should have the same legal protections and benefits as straight people.

when they marry, they cant reproduce,,,,so they recruit.....adopt...what ever. dont want them recruiting around my kids.......teaching it in school.....their churches..... what say you????? it is also against god's laws........
chuck
chuck

[Big Ben]

Chucktx,
I wonder about the whole "recruiting" thing. I mean, think back to when you were a teenager. Do you think someone with a recruitment speech could have convinced you to give up girls and switch to guys? Because I'm pretty d@mn sure that wouldn't have worked on me. "Recruiting" is only going to work on people who are already attracted to people of the same sex, and I don't see why that would be a bad thing.

About the "against god's laws" thing, Jesus didn't think homosexuality was important enough to talk about it much, but he spent quite a bit of time talking about the evils of divorce. Are you advocating for laws making divorce illegal?

I hear people point to the verse in Leviticus that says homosexuality is abomination, but they fail to mention that it's right next to the verse that says people should be stoned to death for working on Sunday, and the verse that says it's a sin to trim your beard or eat shellfish, and the verse that gives advice on how to sell your daughter into slavery. How many of those verses do you follow? You're going to need an awful lot of rocks on Sunday.

How about letting he who is without sin cast the first stone, and letting people live their lives the way they want?

[Sleepy]

I would guess in the biblical sense in the religion that was presented to me it would mean man and woman and that's that. And while we're going to be good Christians we are not going to indulge in premarital sex, we are not going to lust after our brother's wife, we are not going to use birth control, we are not going to get divorced, we are not going to commit suicide nor assist it, we are not going to tattoo out bodies, create or worship a graven image.
I don't know what it's like south of the 49th but a good number of years ago the governments up this way had less religious influences on laws and in the following period of time the definition of "spouse" included same sex partners..
The federal Liberals approved same sex marriages, the recently elected Conservatives will be reviewing this legislation. Provincially speaking, Alberta has a hard time with same sex "marriages"...call it anything else..civil union etc but they're not married..and speaking of marriage, should anyone other than a man of the cloth join two persons in holy matrimony? After all, if the union isn't blessed by God then it isn't marriage then..or is it?
The state does allow for a justice of the peace to unite a couple into a marriage contract. The state has removed the religious element from the institution of marriage. the state has provided a definition of spouse. the insurance companies have adjusted their policies, and their definition of spouses.
Scooter, if your question on marriage is based on a legal definition completely devoid of all religious repercussions I would say that marriage is marriage.irrespective of gender preference.
In the question of homosexuality being a basic right. i'm not familiar enough with your constitution to comment..but our Charter of Rights would allow for that.
I'm not gay. don't want to be. I know some guys who are..and some gals too. ..and they're all right. The people that piss me off are the sexual predators that prey upon others..those people I have no use for..same sex people who are in love with one another? ..I'll not pass judgement..remember, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone..


looks like I was a minute or two behind..didn't mean to steal the cast the first stone line

[chucktx]

ben, when i was a teenager, there was no way a recuiter could talkme out of girls.........but......if i was brought up to think i am supposed to be with another of the same sex, who knows?? i am one of "those" that will never accept same sex marrage......one sided or closed mind, what ever ya want to call it......so i think i will stay out of this one. have a great day
chuck

[scooter]

I knew I would open a big can, but that's what I intended to do.

Regardless of how y'all may or may not think, I was certainly NOT disappointed. Y'all are true gentlemen, and I applaud each and every one of you on the ways you chose to present your points of view.

If debate is allowed to wend it's discourse in our political arenas with as much civility and intelligence as seen here, then there may be some hope for our political parties, they could definitely learn something from the likes of sleepy, chucktx, big ben, brad, etc... (If I missed anyone, sorry.)

Just for the record, I feel the same way as chucktx does, but then again, what matters in a legal sense is what laws our pols enact. It matters not if I see Biblical law as a higher moral ground, if our country goes against it, legally, then we will have to wait it out.

TO quote a song I know "He looked me right in the eyes direct and concise to remind me, to always do what's right."

Know where you stand.

scoot

[brad101]

just to add a little more of my 2 cents. While I wouldnt be disagreeable to a "contract". I still beleive homosexuality to be morally wrong. kind off topic but thats what I find weird about the Phelps idiots that protest at soldiers funerals if it was just about gays soldiers would join them bt they are to friggin stupid (or just waiting for someone to kick their butts so they can sue) to understand. Some real strange characters in this country.

[AFBombBldr]

It makes me wonder just what their "platform" is. They protest the funerals of those who defend their freedom to do whatever it is they do, while saying it's God's punishment for allowing homosexuality in our country. Like it's ONLY in America. I don't really see the connection though. Their conduct is a good argument for reinstating vigilante justice!

Not trying to change anyone's view, but I believe marriage is one man and one woman, as we were created.
I wouldn't vote for it, but I'd rather see "civil unions" allowed than "same-sex marriage".

MHO

[FLHTbiker]

Liking girls is choice, I don't think so. Its called being normal. Guys with guys is a choice and it is away from normal. If gays were normal then there would be more than the very small percentage of them. All people have rights but gays are not normal and should be treated as such, no marriage. Marriage is for a man and a women who meet fall in love and raise a family. That is normal.

Marc G

[Big Ben]

Marc G、

Who gets to decide what's normal, you? None of us on this board are normal--we're bikers!

Those of us saying it's not a choice have provided actual arguments, logic, and stories from gay people who say they never made a choice, whereas those who say it is a choice just declare it as if saying so makes it true. Care to back up your position with facts and logic?

Marriage is for a man and a women who meet fall in love and raise a family.

So people who don't plan to raise a family or are too old to have children shouldn't be allowed to marry? Should a marriage license be revoked if a couple fails to have kids in the first few years?


Personally I don't care whether the word "marriage" is used, but unless a contract with the same rights and priviliges is available, that's a violation of civil rights.

If you don't like homosexuality, that's your right as an American. No one is forcing you to attend their weddings or let them get married in your church, and no one is going to try to force you to be gay. Just let others live their lives and give them equal rights under the law.

[hotroadking]

Desiring marital status JMO is a legal manuver by gay rights activists to obtain married status for purposes of protection for taxes, asset transfer, insurance etc.

Other than that there is no real reason for marriage, they can co-habitate, co-mingle, whatever it is they wish, They can lease apartments and borrow for mortgages togther, everything a married couple can do they can do other than procreate

The difference is when a gay partner dies, the assets go to probate because there is no "spouse". When a gay partner wants to get on a health insurance plan he/she cannot because they are not family nor are they married.

As for taxes they have to file separately which at this time may be more beneficial with the marriage penalty.

The thing that could bring one to believe it's a choice is the bi-sexual lifestyle, those that choose this lifestyle will go both ways seemingly supporting the contention that sexuality is a choice.

It's then perceived that the sexual aspect of gay is a choice because we could all choose to engage in activity that is not "normal" ie straight man - straight woman.

Take a previously 100% straight woman who perhaps on a drunken night chose to have sex with another woman. Does that make her gay, or bi-sexual? It depends on what she does after, if she continues with men, is she straight, bi, if she changes to women then she is gay but either way she made a choice.

How is this a civil rights issue, race is not involved, it's perhaps a lifestyle or lifechoice, nobody has ever proven that Gay people have any different hormones, dna, or bodily structure than a straight person. When does sexual preference becomse a race issue.

I''ve lived in San Francisco, met my wife there, so before any shots begin about knowing anything about the lifestyle I have friends, relatives and been around the gay community for several years, part of a previous job had ties to an industry that is heavily gay.

Then again with all the persecution I have no Idea why anyone would choose to be gay.

[FLHTbiker]

I figured my comments would get a raise from you, oh well its called freedom of speech. But, no Big Ben I don't dictate what's normal God does. No, where in the bible has it ever said Gays are normal people. Look at the percent of the population that is gay, extremely small. Why is it that the human race is the only animal that has Gay's.

Provided stories from Gay people as fact, common Ben that's simple their own reasoning and comments, there is nothing fact about that. There have been countless articles and stores of gay people who finally admitted that they were simple caught up in the gay life style and they chose to follow it and stopped.

The norm is a man and a women, period whether there old, young or in-between.

If your so straight, why do you defend them so hard?

Personally, I think they choose to be the way they are. I really don't think being gay is about loving someone as its simply more about sex than anything else.

Look Ben, I also knew someone several years ago who said he was gay and it destroyed him, he lost his family and he died from it (aids). He said that he would be with 3-6 different guys a week, (the adult shops). Before he died he said that he was wrong and he had simple gotten caught up into that lifestyle and now wished he had done things differently, well of course it was to late by then. Now if that is not enough of a fact for you then I don't know what is.
This is why I just can't and will never accept the fact that being gay is normal.

[Big Ben]

HRK,
I have to concede that in the limited case of bisexuals, there is obviously a choice involved, but for most of us who are either straight or gay, there is no choice. We're just attracted to who we're atttracted to.

Take a previously 100% straight woman who perhaps on a drunken night chose to have sex with another woman. Does that make her gay, or bi-sexual? It depends on what she does after, if she continues with men, is she straight, bi, if she changes to women then she is gay but either way she made a choice.

A "100% straight woman" wouldn't have sex with a woman no matter how drunk she was. (That's what "100%" means.) She was already bi, and she is bi even if she never gets that drunk again. She can make a choice about whether to have sex with a given person, but no one can control who they are attracted to.

Desiring marital status JMO is a legal manuver by gay rights activists to obtain married status for purposes of protection for taxes, asset transfer, insurance etc.

and this is bad because...?
Of course people want the same rights as other people. As it is, hospital visitation, inheritance, insurance, power of attorney, tax benefits, and a whole slew of other rights, benefits, and protections are denied to gays.

How is this a civil rights issue, race is not involved

"Civil rights" means "the rights of citizens to political and social freedom and equality". Not just race. It includes rights for people of all races, rights for women, rights for people of all religions, rights for disabled people, rights for elderly people, and, yes, rights for people of all sexual orientations. Again, the question of whether or not it's a choice is irrelevant, because religon is a choice and we definitely protect that. Still, like you said, "with all the persecution I have no Idea why anyone would choose to be gay." That alone should be enough reason to think it's not a choice.

Marc G,
Nothing wrong with freedom of speech

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the concept of "normal". Who wants to be "normal"? Normal is boring. And, of course, "normal" has nothing to do with "legal". Freedom means the freedom to be different.

where in the bible has it ever said Gays are normal people.

Where in the bible does it say that bikers are normal people? Where in the bible does it say that conservatives are normal people? The only place in the bible that says anything about homosexuality being wrong is the same part that says you can't trim your beard, you can't be in the same room with your wife when she's on the rag, and you have to purify your knife before killing a goat as an offering to God. When was the last time you burned a goat and fulfilled your duty to God? Sinner!

Why is it that the human race is the only animal that has Gay's.

This is just wrong. Homosexuality is common in animals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals#Homosexual_behavior

I really don't think being gay is about loving someone as its simply more about sex than anything else.

Just like being straight is more about sex than love?
Most of the gay people I know are in long-term monogamous relationships, and some of them are raising children. It would be stupid to judge all heterosexuals by the guy who goes out whoring every night and gives his wife herpes, and it would be stupid to judge all beer drinkers by the alcoholic who loses his job and dies of liver failure. It is just as stupid to judge all gays by the guys who have promiscuous unsafe sex.

I'll bet if you talk to a guy who's dying of liver failure from alcohol on his death bed, he'll tell you he wishes he never drank and that it was all a mistake. That doesn't prove anything about alcohol, just that it's dumb to overdo things. When some idiot squid wheelies through an intersection and gets hit by a bus, that doesn't tell me that motorcycles are too dangerous. It tells me you shouldn't overdo it. Personally, I'm going to keep drinking beer and riding my bike.

If your so straight, why do you defend them so hard?

This is like asking an American GI in WWII, "You're not Jewish, so why do you fight the Nazis?" Or a Union soldier, "You're not black, why are you fighting to free the slaves?" Because I care about freedom and justice, that's why.

It's like the old "First they came for..." thing. If we only fight when it's our own rights at stake, there will be no one left to fight for us when they come for us. As long as someone in America is being denied their freedoms, I am not truly free.

I would ask you instead: Why do you fight so hard to deny people their rights when it doesn't harm you at all?