[voodoo1]

Wow I filled up the Ol' GMC JIMMY today....for what it took to do that a "while back" I could have took out a date,went to the movies,dinner and got a room!!! Today I just got screwed at the pump and not even a good night kiss!!!!!:mad

[Goose]

Originally Posted by voodoo1

Wow I filled up the Ol' GMC JIMMY today....for what it took to do that a "while back" I could have took out a date,went to the movies,dinner and got a room!!! Today I just got screwed at the pump and not even a good night kiss!!!!!:mad

Costs real close to 100 bills to fill up the 35 gallon tank on my Van. So, It don't get driven much. Gonna get a hitch on the Wife's Toyota to haul the race bike with. I have a little 200cc DP bike that gets nearly 100 mpg and will run 60 mph all day long. It holds a gallon and a half, ROFLMAO! Full little bike, though, dirt or street. I haven't been riding even my Wing and my SV much with the gas prices and I don't reckon they'll ever go DOWN. Up is the only direction I foresee. If I didn't need the van for hauling the boat and camping in, I'd just dump it right now. It's still in good shape, only 80K miles on the clock. It don't do bad for a small block, 15 to the gallon, but that's pretty bad NOW days.

[scooter]

It's gotta go down soon, things are starting to cost way too much as it is, and this only adds fuel to the fire.

all about greed, that's the sad part. Especially when we have tankers offshore WAITING to be unloaded.

Seems like they need to take these billions-per-day that they are making and start expanding existing refinery capabilities and build some new ones, too!!!

[Red Rider]

Why does gas cost so much? Because it can. The vast majority of Americans are willing to pay for it. It is that simple, folks, no conspiracy needed. When you look at gas prices in the context of how much they are today vs. in the 60's or 70's, they are the SAME in dollar value. No one is giving up their Gameboys or MP3 players to buy gas. Disposable income has risen, so people will pay more for what they need, or want. I remember when folks were paying big bucks for Pet Rocks and Cabbage Patch dolls. Why do we pay it? Because we can. When we can't, the price will go down.

Lived in Japan for nearly 5 years over a decade ago. Our prices now are still less than half of what was paid for gas there then. Don't like it? Adapt, improvise, overcome. And RIDE. Leave the van parked. Don't upgrade to a 103 ci engine. Improve yourself, make more $$, don't waste as much as you are now. Buy cheap shoes instead of $100 Nikes. Deal with it.

[Killer-B]

Right on Red Rider, improvise with what you have to deal with.
When I was in Japan in 91-92, I remember the gas being something like $2-something a liter. Progress or inflation, call it what you will.

[scooter]

Yeah, well,

With all due respect...I am STILL miffed about how big oil is making these billions and STILL not reinvesting/developing their technoligical and industrial base to keep pace with the demand and quality of the product out there.

I, for one, would love see OPERATIONAL derricks at all the wells they keep drilling here in my county alone. Nope, just drill, find the gas or oil, burn some off to bring it on...then cap it. Waiting for the Arabs to run out? Welll, that'll be a few centuries down the road.

Long story? If I am to pay that much for my fuel, I want it to be from the ground underneath my feet. NOT from the ground underneath the sheikhs' feet, yanno? And no, just because my feet have been over there doesn't count...THIS is where my feet belong, on AMERICAN soil. Rant mode off.

scoot

[Killer-B]

Yep, I have been a little hot at all the profit’s the big three or four oil companies have been producing the last four or five quarters. Nothing against free enterprise and making good profit. But, I would feel a little less raped if could see some serious reinvesting. To lower the cost to the consumer.
My .02

[scooter]

EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Not only that, but making it cheaper, production wise, would free up more profit reinvestment in the R & D end, for a fuel that's even MORE efficient and burns cleaner. Still fossil, I firmly believe it can be done. Look at the advance everything else has seen.

Hopefully there is alot more in the positive arena being done behind the scenes that we aren't privvy to. I just HAFTA believe that, cause I'll go crazy otherwise!

[Red Rider]

Frankly, I don't care if they reinvest a single penny. Why shouldn't they get the profit? If you get a big pay raise, does your neighbor get to tell you how to spend it? Does he get to tell you that you can't get any chrome for your ride before you paint your house or re-sod your lawn?

They already are working on alternatives, but here's the big secret: OIL IS CHEAPER! And will continue to be for a long time. Notice how we in the USA are hardly touching our oil fields? And there is more oil in the US than the Middle East. Heck, more just in Utah, Wyoming and Montana than there.

It is not the oil companies that are setting the prices - it is the market. Works like this - a company say "we have 3 billion barrels for sale this December" ... then the market speculators bid various prices, with high bidder winning. It is no more the fault of oil companies that the price is high than it is the NFL's fault that scalped Super Bowl tickets are sold at 5 times the face value.

I also don't remember anyone complaining that these companies were losing too much money in the 80's and 90's when oil was $10 a barrel and they had to refit all their tankers to meet new standards. They also haven't been allowed to build any refineries in nearly 30 years because of the "not in my neighborhood" political climate.

But there probably is no point to my spouting - the Politics of Envy is what seems to be ruling in America today. We used to want to "keep up with the Joneses", now we want to sue them, jail them and destroy them so they won't leave us behind. Too bad.

[CD]

Originally Posted by Red Rider

Frankly, I don't care if they reinvest a single penny. Why shouldn't they get the profit? If you get a big pay raise, does your neighbor get to tell you how to spend it? Does he get to tell you that you can't get any chrome for your ride before you paint your house or re-sod your lawn?

They already are working on alternatives, but here's the big secret: OIL IS CHEAPER! And will continue to be for a long time. Notice how we in the USA are hardly touching our oil fields? And there is more oil in the US than the Middle East. Heck, more just in Utah, Wyoming and Montana than there.

It is not the oil companies that are setting the prices - it is the market. Works like this - a company say "we have 3 billion barrels for sale this December" ... then the market speculators bid various prices, with high bidder winning. It is no more the fault of oil companies that the price is high than it is the NFL's fault that scalped Super Bowl tickets are sold at 5 times the face value.

I also don't remember anyone complaining that these companies were losing too much money in the 80's and 90's when oil was $10 a barrel and they had to refit all their tankers to meet new standards. They also haven't been allowed to build any refineries in nearly 30 years because of the "not in my neighborhood" political climate.

But there probably is no point to my spouting - the Politics of Envy is what seems to be ruling in America today. We used to want to "keep up with the Joneses", now we want to sue them, jail them and destroy them so they won't leave us behind. Too bad.

Much as I would like to, I cannot disagree with a single point Red has made.

The Bushes are owned by oil just as Kerry is owned by Ketchup. Which one do you vote for? They are all owned by the true power players.
Can we ever have an effective price gouging law? How? Do I want Congress determining my profitability?
Unless someone can find illegal activity within a corporation, they do not violate any laws I know of.

But, what if Congress enacted a wind fall profit tax aimed at the entire oil industry? And, what if those taxes are mandated to be spent on building government owned refineries etc and leased or sold to operators? Pipe dreams? Probably.

What we could do is drill our own wells (government owned and regulated) and sell the crude to the refineries under contract. The profit could be reinvested into the infrastructure. Never happen, makes too much sense.

[Red Rider]

Windfall profit taxes only raise the cost to the consumer, everytime they are used. Check history. They are designed to make people feel good, that their government is doing something to screw the "Big _(insert current demonized business)__". Politics of Envy. Next in line is pharmaceutical companies, because they actually want to be paid for developing all the drugs that keep us alive...and so they can afford the lawsuits that come their way for keeping us alive, but not as happy as we "deserve" to be.

The Bushes are owned by oil? Give me a break! And Michael Moore is an objective journalist. What can Big Oil give a second-term President who clearly has all he really wants? Conspiracy theories abound when fact is inconvenient. Given that he's friggin President, how can Big Oil influence him? He "owes" them? Don't think so.

As for nationalizing our oil fields and refineries, gee, that worked so well in the Soviet Union. What's next? Health care? Works so good in Canada that most of our Canadian tourists somehow end up in US hospitals nowadays. Let's nationalize the auto/motorcycle industry, too. After all, Harley has made a fortune lately. And computer software should be nationalized, too. Bill Gates has too much money. And all pro sports - ridiculous that we have to watch millionaires play games.......

I really wish Americans' feelings weren't so easily manipulated. But we are are free to be wise, curious, or foolish. Oh well, 'nuff said. Time for a ride...................

[CD]

Gee Red, I think you do need a ride .

I was expressing my opinions being a free country and all..... Don't get all riled up because I threw some ideas into the arena. The system is broken and needs repair. The Liberals, Conservative, Left Wing, Right Wing, No Wings, what ever have screwed things up so badly it is not even funny.

Do you really think that politicians are their own men and women and special interests do not jerk their chains? Really?

During the last election, we had three choices for President. We could vote for Hanoi Kerry, Dubya or write your choice here. Which was the lesser evil? If I remember correctly, you mentioned being a former officer? Who would you want as commander in chief when the crap flew into the fan? While Bush is not the greatest President, I could not ever have served or respected a traitor as President. I would have served properly until separating or retiring which would have been ASAP.

Are you advocating that America should just suck it up and pay the prices? A lot of people are being affected by high gas prices now. What happens if they go higher or, simply stay where they are now? A lot of low income families struggling to make it are going to need more assistance to help with the costs......More taxes...

One of the greatest things about America is that we can agree to disagree. We can challenge authority in numbers strong enough to send a message. We can sell our pickups, SUV's, low MPG bikes and all ride Moped's if needed...(NOT).

Being a business owner I agree I have the right to earn what I can and charge what I want for my products. But, it is not always true. Here is something to ponder for ya. Why is it legal for certain companies to dictate not only advertised prices but, what you can actually sell the product for? Before you say it is illegal, don't bother, I have spent the last two years researching MAP cases from A-Z. I've spent more $$$$ with trade law specialists than I want to think about. The point being is that why can a manufacturer dictate what a retailer can sell his product for and a state cannot? Why shouldn't a state have the right to protect it's citizens from price gouging?

[FLHTbiker]

As long as Democrates and Republican fight each other in the congress and senate on just about every issue there is, well it just seems that nothing will get accomplished. The first thing that needs correcting is getting rid of the two or three party system and have everyone be a Republican
Now that would really pis8 off my wife.

[Red Rider]

Not riled, not trying to rile.

You're welcome to your opinions. And (obviously) to share them. I was just sharing mine. I used to believe in all sorts of "socially conscious" things, until I learned they were largely hogwash (and not the useful kind that I use on my bike). I've also seen how the press has blatantly lied about a whole host of issues, and omitted reporting about other things that really matter. I haven't concluded that they are in a conspiracy so much as they are a pack of whackos trying to rile us all up on a daily basis so we'll keep watching their shows and give them ratings. Their bias is to making an issue sensational, the facts be darned. Now we have a political party that has that as their motto, too.

As to your business concerns, yeah, it does sound whacked. But don't you have the freedom not to carry their products? And what is the penalty for not doing what they want? If you contract with them, you are bound. For perspective, a socialist gov would not only tell you what to sell and for how much, but they would also tell you what your inventory must be and your sales would have no impact on your fixed income. If your manufacturer sells a product that you want to see sold at a different price, look for an alternative manufacturer that does it your way. Or become his competition. Before you say it can't be done, I can name a zillion companies that were born from disatisfaction with "status quo" manufacturers. Just in our mutual area of interest - ever heard of Big Dog, Orange County Choppers, S&S, STD, etc.....the list can go on and on.

Our Founding Fathers saw all this coming. They knew a democratic republic was going to lead to lousy governance. Fortunately for us, as bad as a democratic republic is, it is the best form of governance available on Earth right now.

It don't matter anyway, because Al Gore says we're all gonna die from global warming - too late for us!

[Goose]

It's a lot more complicated that "big oil" and I ain't even gonna pretend I understand the futures markets. And, when oil is taking a hit, like the early 80s, no one seems to care, just when they turn a profit. Well, guess what, they ain't gonna sell ya squat for NOTHIN'.

Anyway, I'm waitin' for a E85 tank in my town. I don't currently have an E85 compatible vehicle, but I'm going to experiment with a "dial-a-jet" on my little 200cc bike. I want to use it for its simplicity and lack of a fuel pump. I don't THINK ethanol will damage neoprene, not an organic solvent, is water soluble, but I don't want to mess with the SV or the Wing for this. Basically, you just need to jet the bike richer for ethanol. Parts are dirt cheap for that bike if it does eat at anything rubber in the fuel system. Heck, I can buy a whole new motor for under $400. The bike only cost me a grand brand new!

Anyway, I'm going to get a dial-a-jet, which I've heard works well from a couple of guys that tried it. It's adjustable for jetting, works something like a "power jet", but with a twist. Read about it here.....

http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm

If and when E85 gets rollin', and it'll probably take a while, I'll test it on my Chino cheapo and let you know how it works. A carbureted Harley might be just as easy to convert if it works well. I'd have GOOD justification for that Sporster if so. Think I'd sell the Wing and keep the SV. The Sportster would become my workhorse bike.

This is all just in my head at the moment. Lord knows if it'll all work or if we'll ever get E85, but we'll see. I know there are ethanol plants being built as we speak and it ain't for Jack Daniels.

[scooter]

I know there are ethanol plants being built as we speak and it ain't for Jack Daniels.

Love it, wish it WERE for JD!!!

Red, you are right. I guess I just get irritated like everyone else and it's just easier to vent in ignorance sometimes, than it is to actually go and do a little more research into certain issues.

I DO wish there were more modernized, higher capacity refining capability, though. I would love to see the days come around again when the supertankers were filled up HERE, and sent elsewhere,yanno??

[voodoo1]

Bush? come on that ain't got much to do with it it happend when it happend both sides playing us..the Tree Huggers won't allow Refineries just as much........that is the other side of the aisle. I ain't gonna simply say ..well I got it better than Japan or Great Britain..what happens when we are paying that kind of money for gas?...yeah supply and demand...I know that..but even Web sites are dictated to what they can and can't show as far as prices....yeah you can "choose" not to sell their stuff, but unless you suddenly become Amish, you need gas....They all are in cahoots and make the lobbying dollars...if they had to pay for their own Gas,worry about retirement,they might actually be abled to be called Representatives.....until then we have politicians. Just like my healthcare...gotta(need to) have it..and insurance..gotta have it.... guess I should be thankful I don't pay as much as the next guy don't cut it for me..I question how in the world did it that far and I really don't want to be there or end up just like "them". Really tired of tree huggers trying to shame into thinking how lucky I am and how I should feel guilt because someone else has it worse. I am thankful and want to keep it and would help them out long before I wanna end up like them. No disrepect intended. That my friends is just dictatorship hiding around the corner. No matter what "party it is"

ps the world's biggest oil supply is in the Artic and the Russians are currently building hundred of miles of pipe to get the oil from the offshore rigs(being built currently by Samsung). They also will have the largest supply of natural gas the storage containers are massive. They have already sold the next twenty years of oil supply from there and have not even began to start drilling. so much for the "speculation" wonder who bought it????

If you listen to fools the MOB rules!!!!(LOL)

[Big Ben]

What we could do is drill our own wells (government owned and regulated) and sell the crude to the refineries under contract. The profit could be reinvested into the infrastructure. Never happen, makes too much sense.

But that would be socialism! (Cue scary music)
Good idea, but it's only a temporary solution.

This isn't a problem that has easy solutions. Politicians form right and left are trying to pin it on their favorite bogeymen, but the truth is that there's only so much crude in the world and the problem is just going to get worse. Prices may go down temporarily every once in a while, but for the rest of our lives we need to get used to the fact that prices are just going to keep getting higher and higher.

Ethanol can never be produced in the kind of quantity necessary to replace fossil, it's getting harder and harder to find new places to pump oil, and the new places being found are expensive to get to. The economies of China and India keep getting stronger, and all those people are going to want cars pretty soon. Demand keeps going up, supplies keep going down.

They're finally coming up with electric cars that are fun to drive, and maybe solar and wind power will eventually get good enough to take up some of the slack.

We're all doing our part by riding our bikes, but we really have to hope the smart boys in R&D come up with something before it gets too expensive to move around.

[Red Rider]

And to all of this I say - Let's RIDE!

I'm out for a week, hitting the open highways and maybe even cruisin' to the Great White North for some contraband Cuban smokes (oh no, maybe the NSA will track me down?). Ya'll have a good time and try not to stress over crud that we can't change even if Alec Baldwin were President. By the way, got to give a plug for that movie "Team America". Nearly laughed till I puked!

See ya on the highways, if your lucky enough to ride 'em with me.

[Goose]

Ethanol can never be produced in the kind of quantity necessary to replace fossil

That would be so if it could only come from corn, but I read the other day that just the stalks wasted from harvest, if they were utilized for ethanol, could fuel the country for a year. There's lots of waste like this in agriculture and there are plants that could be grown elsewhere to be converted. Of course, biomass high in simple sugars is the best producer, but any biomass can produce ethanol. They do it in Brazil with sugar cane, but Brazil's population isn't as large nor is their fuel usage. Yet, they're only utilizing sugar cane. There's lots of other sources they could be using, but they don't need to.

We don't have the ethanol production capacity, though, yet. But, it can be built and will be built if the market is there. I think ethanol is our short term answer. If it can just take up the slack that OPEC takes up now, it'll be worth it from the national security standpoint. If we don't need their oil, do we really care what happens to the middle east???? OPEC's had us by the cojones and they've been squeezing harder and harder for 30 years. I think it's time to cut THEIR cojones for a change. I think the national security issue is far more important than the price of gasoline.

And, don't try to use the argument that "big oil" won't let ethanol get a foot hold. Big oil is also big chemistry. We have a BP chemicals plant right here in this area, owned by British Petroleum. They make acrylonitrile, used as a monomer in the production of acrylic plastics. That has nothing to do with gasoline stations. Oil companies compete in the chemical industry and will gain profits in the ethanol market, too.

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php