[FLHTbiker]

CD, you'll notice that I did not include Chrysler. Ford build the Mazda for them and from what I understand Ford owns around 30 percent of Mazda. However, I still will not buy a foreign owned vehicle whether its produced here in the USA or overseas. Radios and the other house hold products are all made somewhere overseas, can't help that. My friggen TV is a Jap Toshiba and it gives us nothing but problems.
One reason for so many things produced overseas is labor cost, understand that.
One of the biggest reasons that the US automakers are having a hard time competing is the auto unions.
I'll still buy Harley's, Chevy and Fords.
When I bought by Escape I did look at a Honda Element, there kind of boxy but just couldn't do it.

[Sleepy]

While it is fashionable to direct a lot of the blame towards organized labour in the case of the "big three" I'm not sold that some poor decisions by the management, planning and the financing department didn't have something to do with it. I will agree that some of the agreements were weighted in favor of labour...you will note on each and every agreement there are signatures for both parties on the documents...somewhere somehow someone thought they could make it work, then someone screws it up. The UAW is into concession bargaining. Saturn's Spring Hill plant gave back a no lay off provision some years ago. More parts are outsourced..like Harleys does now. Some of the problems as I see it is keeping the benefits sustainable and it's hugely expensive in your country..health care and retirement benefits tacked on rough $1500.00 on each GM vehicle shipped...poor investment taking holidays on contributions to pension plans etc can get a company in trouble in a hurry. Here in North America we have an aging workforce carrying a load of retirees that the new players will be running into in a few years..then the playing field will start to even out. I can't agree on getting rid of the unions being the answer to changing the auto industry for the better. Health and safety would suffer and even in a union environment some maintenance personnel were exposed to carcinogens and developed illness relating to those exposures.
Simply put, a worker wants a safe, clean, decently paying place to work. A place where you can show up, do your work, not have to be at risk of getting fired for parting your hair the wrong way....[see Goose for that one] not having to worry about flipping the coin and either getting fired for refusing to use that chemical without proper PPE or worrying about getting sick up the road because you needed that job. Safety is expensive and it is no coincidence that a lot of work has shifted from the rust belt to the "Right to Work States" where it is thought that there is a more profitable approach , no cumbersome union to deal with...especially on matters of heath and safety.
The governments aren't big on health and safety legislation..California exported a bunch of jobs..too expensive to do business there. So as a dumb factory worker..which essentially, is what I am, If the company doesn't want to look after my well being..[talking safe place here folks, no monetary issues]
The government doesn't seem to be a willing participant..who the hell is?
I know it could be said that you don't have to work there..true but someone will..the problem never goes away..
So until someone steps up to the plate and wants to legitimately help the working man..I guess it'll be up to organized labour. I could go on and on but this really ain't the place. Reader's digest version is that unions are still necessary for maintenance of worker's rights. I haven't seen any UAW union bugs in the parking lot of Enron Buildings..look like they did a good job of running the company into the ground without union help.

Just a couple of tidbits. I strive to shop local. Canadian made..clothing furniture food, etc, American is second choice...I'm not really a price point buyer. A person can't help to buy offshore stuff as there is no choice..but where there is that choice..the home team wins

*disclaimer* These thoughts are my opinion only based on the information available to me at the time. I cannot guarantee the accuracy of all the content..just in case the lawyers are looking for work

[CD]

Ford owns 34% of Mazda. Mazda designed the Tribute / Escape in Hiroshima and US production is in Kansas city. In 2005, the base engine was changed to a Mazda designed duratec engine.

And, that is my entire point. Ford and Mazda are joined together at the hip and that in itself amply illustrates the fact that we now live in a global economy.

Look inside your fairing and note how many "made in China" logos there are. Look at your gauges, suspension, much of the shiny bits and pieces. HD has gone global and there is no turning back for them either.

IMHO, there is very little hope of manufacturing recovery for the USA. We want big salaries, great top quality products as cheap as we can get them and complain when we find out that the best prices and the best products come out of Asia. Who is the blame for that?

[CD]

Bob,
While unions have done a lot of good in the areas of safe working conditions and overall environment, they have gone majorly awry when it comes to wages. Since when does a driver of a brown truck with a GED deserve $20.00 per hour? Add in the bennie's and it translates to much more than that. That wage package equalled a significant rate raise after they struck a few years ago so who paid for that pay raise? The consumer. Fed-X is non union and pays their drivers a fair wage and package and is an excellent work environment.

Motorola had a strict union band and you even mentioned union and you lost your job. My Mom, Dad, two brothers and an Uncle worked there for years for excellent wages and bennie's.

Until unions realize that their employers are not cornucopias full of big wages and endless bennie's we, the consumer will take it in the shorts paying some meat head $50.00 an hour to sit on his ass.

Has GM, Ford, Chrysler and even Rambler made bad management decisions? Certainly but, each article I have read says the same thing over and over again. The direct and indirect employee cost per unit keeps going up and up. The bottom line is, the bottom line. If the stock holders don't see profits, they sell and you end up with junk stock. You then need to survive and Mexico has tons of cheap labor and tax breaks up the wazoo. Now, what are those nice union laborers going to say when their big buck jobs are gone?

Unions harp that they fight for safety, fair wages, fair bennies etc. When in reality, you must leave off the first one because it always boils down to more bucks. When was the last strike at an automotive plant over safety? What's the ratio of strikes for bigger bucks vs. strikes for safety reasons?

History tells us unions did an admirable job for employees and I agree. They did the job but, that is history and now they must do their part in order to keep their jobs or they will be history.

[Sleepy]

I've seen a steel mill close over safety issues at bargaining time..company wanted major concessions..the union only would have prolonged the inevitable had they gave in...it was an old plant..dirty, they couldn't afford to clean it up so it was over. the press said it was a wage issue..I knew some people that worked there.It's funny you mention wages as a strike issue. Years ago we were told one of the last things you want to hit the bricks over was money..and that's a philosophy I still preach today..unless it's a huge increase you've thrown it away drawing picket pay.The big thing years ago was job security, medical plans, increased paid time off..shorter work week etc. Those items found their way onto a picket line to get resolved. Working conditions and some safety issues have been the focal point of strikes. In a lot of cases money is thrown at it to get the deal done..this is what the public reads in the paper..short blurb... wage increase....pension increase...yada yada...lots more to this than just money..but you're right about one thing..we have to evolve some interesting things are happening out there..we can see the writing on the wall

[FLHTbiker]

I have never worked for a company that had a Union. The only one that I worked for that under paid their employees by a large amount was a Jap owned company called Epson. Consequentially I only stayed long enough to find a better paying job. Epson was trying to build a computer at the time and it flopped big time and then we were transferred to the printer division plant dwn the road. Epson, closed their doors here a year or so after I left them and took everything to Taiwan, go figure. Glad I left them, worst company I ever worked for.

As for unions the only thing I know about them is they can be strong and can hurt the consumer at times and the tax paying public as in my wifes job as a teacher.

[SK]

Boy..the unions are like a two-headed dragon. Great for the workers, yet draining business at times. While I understand wanting to buy American..what really is American any more? My thought is that this is a free country and you have the right to do what you want. We have more choices than any other country on earth and I like to exercise that right. If I see something I like more than anything else..that's what I buy. Locally..I like to keep the mom and pop businesses in business..which is why I hate places like Wal-Mart. But when it comes to big ticket items..I buy what I like best no matter who owns the company. Competition is what makes this country great!

[Sleepy]

I've got 15 months in my term as president of the local..one more c.a. and that's that..time to get out of office and have a little fun for my last few years at work...I love what I do at the plant as an operator/instructor. I'm skilled at it and it's fun..still after all these years...The union end of things has had it's ups and downs..it's been a lot of work..I've got a lot of good things done for the membership..we've done well given the circumstances..we've been proactive...gotten a bit of grief from some "traditionalists" in the labour movement but the times they are a-changing..change ain't necessarily a bad thing. The salaried reps know this is my last term and they hear my message..when I'm done it's gonna be a hundred dollar haircut and a european car...I've paid my dues..got the job done..time to get a little selfish and have some fun....a BMW is a sweet car..my sister has got one, my brother has got one..they don't cost a whole lot more than a domestic car....I figure it's time
Kev, you're right about choice..and I'm gonna be makin' some

[DKIN21]

I'VE OWENED 6 OR 7 METERIC BIKES SINCE THE EARLY 70'S, BOUGHT MY FIRST H-D IN 04 (NEW LOW RIDER) ABOUT A MONTH AGO I BOUGHT A NEW 07 ROAD KING SCREAMIN EAGLE WITH THE 110ci, AWSOME , YES IT RUNS LEAN FROM THE FACTORY, BUT WITH 1200 MILES ON IT, UP TO ABOUT 103MPH IT RAN WITH A BUDDY OF MINE VTX 1800 HONDA, JUST WONDER WHAT IT WILL DO WITH FEW MORE MILES AND WITH MORE FUEL TURNED TO IT. I KNOW TH HD'S ARE OVER PRICED BUT I WILL NEVER OWN ANOTHER METRIC BIKE

LIVE EASY, RIDE HARD

[FLHTbiker]

DKIN21, I've looked at a couple of the 07 SE bikes. The black/orange is really a cool color combo with the orange speck's into the black. Yea, they are expensive but what isn't anymore. After owning several Honda Goldwings including an 1800 Goldwing I would not trade my Ultra for one. The HD Ultra simply is a better handling bike and especially at slow speeds. Pricing a new Goldwing (over 19,000 now) and putting the items on one that come factory stock on an HD Ultra you will now spend more for the Goldwing than the Ultra.
If you take a new stock ultra and put everything on one that comes with the SE its actually less expensive to buy a new SE from the factory.

[Texas Road Glide]

it not the japs copying the v-twins that bothers me,
what bothers me,is how cheap they do it for,
and how reliable they are, thats what bothers me!!!
think i will just hang on to my old scoot, and be thankfull for what i have!!

[gator]

When the baby boomers stop paying anything the MOCO wants for their bikes and parts, the company will see the light and have to get competitive. There will always be the die hards that will and can pay any price. The MOCO is all about looking after themselves and only themselves.

Oh, I need to run out and buy another $35 t-**** with their name on it, because I know they have me in mind, like Wal-Mart, ALWAYS

[FLHTbiker]

Originally Posted by GreyBear

I saw that title in the bookstore the other day and quipped to my old lady: "cause we can!" Same answer to your question Deathwind: Cause they can. As long as people are standing in line to buy a product the company making that product is not going to spend money making it better. Why should they? Harley doesn't race any more. They just sell terribly over priced, tecnologically chalenged, status symbol motorcycles. And they do well doing it. Now if 50% of the people that are going to buy a new bike this year were to not do so and write to the motor company and explain why.......we would see some tremendous innovation. But HD makes a good profit and rule number 2 of business is: If it works don't fix it.
As to bigger and better...maybe. the 88 I have is the displacement I used to spend a mint on with Truett and Osborne to have in a shovel. There were multi millions of miles put on H-D's that were 61 cubic inch and even more on 74's which is now considered an entry level bike aka the 1200 sporty.
There is only so much power you can have and use the classic styling that makes HD what it is. Trying to take a Harley or a Harley style cruiser and compete with a real sportbike....well you need tons of money, cohonas the size of basketballs......and the brain the size of an oyster. Why reinvent the wheel? I love my Harley, but I don't love it because it is the most perfect example of motorcycle engineering in existance. I love it the same way Mrs. Bear loves me........in spite of all it's faults and shortcomings.

Ride Free........

A quote from many Harley Riders who used to ride the imports is, they lack the soul that a Harley Has.

[Pixs]

CD et al,

Folks, this board wouldn't be here if it was not for Unions! We would still be using coal fired computers with gears.

I read somewhere that American corporate executives receive 85 times more salery and bennifits than world avg. The state of our economy is in sad shape because of manipulation by various entitys, yes, even unions. However, unions get a disproportion of the blame, about the same as gov. regs. Harley Davidson employees are amoung the best paid, well cared for people on the planet. It is not common for an employee to leave them with less than 30 to 40 years service. Back in the 60's, the avg. Japanese worker was expected to only have 10 jobs in his life time, usually for the same company. Today, they move about almost like we do.

There is no such thing as a "free lunch" or anything for that matter, someone always ends up paying. It's a world of traid offs, do you realy want to live in China on their economy? How about Sweden, great benifits, 45% tax rate. on and on.

We need to make the most of what we've got and stop blaming the "other guy" for the mess. Change or die, that is the choice! Darwin at work.

[ray587]

this is one of those subjects that everyone has their own opinion on. sure everything is overpriced today but if there is no american company to produce a certain part then the moco has to go somewhere else to get it made. as for buying only american, do we want american owned or american made? I own a toyota that americans were paid to build and a chevy that mexicans were paid to build. as for me I believe if you are going to sell me a motorcycle for 20000.00 sell me 20000.00 worth of motorcycle.

[FLHTbiker]

Originally Posted by ray587

this is one of those subjects that everyone has their own opinion on. sure everything is overpriced today but if there is no american company to produce a certain part then the moco has to go somewhere else to get it made. as for buying only american, do we want american owned or american made? I own a toyota that americans were paid to build and a chevy that mexicans were paid to build. as for me I believe if you are going to sell me a motorcycle for 20000.00 sell me 20000.00 worth of motorcycle.

However Ray587, the profits from the sale of the GM vehicle go back to a US company and not back to *** Land or back to some other foreign country. Not all vehicles from GM are made in Mexico as there are a great many union workers in this country still working for GM and Ford. My Chevy Silverado HD2500 4X4 pickup has a Union sticker on the door and build in the USA. Does the Toyota vehicles made in I believe Tenn. come from a Union backed worker?

As for Harley and their parts I can only guess that they buy for quality and price just like we do. However, I do get a little irritated with all of their clothing that say's made in China.

I still like my Harley and that comes from years of riding Honda's, Yamaha's. Those others manufactures make good bikes and have their place but I as I said I like my HD. I currently own a Honda Valk. Interstate and that is a good running and really fast bike but handing is poor and will probably sell it this spring.

As for overpriced I agree with you most everything is and I still like you like to buy American made but I also like American owned.

[ray587]

i agree. if it was up to me if you sell it here it has to be made here. as for the union workers, i strongly believe without the unions workers would be at the mercy of their employers. it fact i belong to the iam and am proud of it. as for american companys. who benefits when a product is made in mexico or some other country. the american worker doesn't who lost that job. the profit may stay here in the usa but that may end up in some execs bonus check. those workers in tenn and ky may be very happy working for a japanese co. union or not at least they are still putting food on the table. and all those workers laid off from gm, ford and dodge? some mexican is getting that paycheck now. nafta sucks!! and like you i've owned hondas yamahas and kawasakis and they were all good bikes but they just did not invoke that feeling i've had and still have with all the harleys i've owned. nothing feels quite like a harley, over priced or not. its like a coke its the real thing not an imitation. i guess i could sit here and rant and rave all day but sometimes these posts don't really read like i intended. i just start rambling on and on.

[FlynDutchman]

Originally Posted by FLHTbiker

A quote from many Harley Riders who used to ride the imports is, they lack the soul that a Harley Has.

I used to ride rice...Had a susucki, & I'll tell ya, it may have looked alot like a Harley (I called it my hardly a davidson) but like you said: it lacked the soul. lots of the things that were "chrome" were just plated plastic. Every one of the major cycle manufacturers tries to get the Harley look, sound & feel, but most of the time fall short. The only thing they can do to combat Harley is keep the price cheap (hence the plastic) Think about it, how many guys do you see walking around with honda, suzuki or yamaha shirts on ?? all 3 probably would'nt equal 1% of the Harley shirts out there. Its because Harley has mastered the art of self promotion...t-shirts, hats, phones, toys, pert near anything you can think of. Thats why its good to be King, they don't have to prove anything to anybody cause they know they have a product people like. (at least I like it) Thats why I'll never ride another bike but a Harley-Davidson

[FLHTbiker]

Yep I agree their FlynDutchman. I just went down to the Harley shop, picked up a very well made sweat shirt with a front zippier to wear under my riding jacket when temps are cold, like now. I've been in the Honda shops and they have nothing that compares to HD for the clothing. A lot of people buy it and it is usually really good quality.
I used to ride a Goldwing and we would go in to buy chrome for it. All the chrome was Chrome covered plastic and it would fad out after a while. You couldn't polish it as it would scratch, junk. Now when I buy chrome its chrome plated metal and it lasts.

[GreyBear]

Saw this and wondered what others liked to wear? I have a washable wool sweater that zips up the front and has a fleece "cadet" collar made by woolrich. It is super warm inside my leathers and is nice to sit around camp in. It is also the coolest thing I have found to wear when riding in really hot weather...until you stop then ya better shed it QUICK lol.

Ride Free.....