[Art_NJr]

I could go on and on but as long as Iran has these kind of views,
Wipe Israel 'off the map' Iranian says - International Herald Tribune
what is there to talk about?
To allow this idiot to get his hands on nuclear weapons would be pure folly, it is clear they want Israel (the little satan) and us (the big satan) to vanish from the earth. What is there to talk about? AL

Oh there's a lot more going on, including the fact that there are different factions in Iran who do not agree - won't see that in the "mainstream news" though. I'm not being an apologist for Iran & even if their only nuclear goal is to build power plants to supply electricity to their own people, if you can figure out how to build a power plant, you can figure out how to build a weapon too. I'm not a nuclear physicist, but I do know that while the technolgy for a power plant & a weapon are quite different, the Laws of Physics do not change.

But as mentioned, Israel is way ahead of Iran in technology (we buy some systems from them), can hit Iran any time they want from the air & there's next to nothing Iran can do about it. And what direct threat does Iran pose to the U.S.? They could stop shipping oil, but that'd be "cutting your nose off to spite your face" & they're not stupid enough to do that - oil is their source of income.

Have to look past the "sabre-rattling" to the "big picture".

[FlynDutchman]

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

The Bush Admin. lies about Iran & has since day one. And the "mainstream media" doesn't report all that's going on either. Here's just one article which goes into that:
Article | The American Prospect
It's long, but certainly worth the read.

When you start going into the "Bush lied people died" thing, you instantly turned me off... So you say the Bush administration is lying about the weapons that they have gotten in Iraq (found by our fine military by the way) that came from Iran ? Or that Hezbollah (who by the way also killed 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1983) is being subsidized by Iran ? Thats common knowedge. Hezbollah admits it. We have been at war with these people for decades but somebody apparently forgot to tell you. Just because you dont believe everything in the "mainstream" media, doesnt mean its ALWAYS incorrect. By the same token everything you read in "Alternative" media outlets isn't always correct. Look at all the conspiracy theorist whack jobs out there like 911truth.org. Are you one of those who really thinks our own government killed 3000 of its own, including cops/firemen/& military to go to war ? I can understand you not liking war. Nobody does, mostly the combatant, but sometimes war is necessary. If you say its not, you aren't realistic. When people who have nothing to live for, & will die for anything, are hell bent on killing you & distroying your way of life, I am one who believes you do not sit idle. We have sit idle for too long while they pick off a few here, blow up a few building there. Its got to end. They have already been emboldened enough to attack us twice on our own soil & you think it will end there ? Or do you think we can just talk to them ? Maybe change foreign policy, Im sure thats all it will take. Maybe I should have been a bully in school, with the way people think today I would have gotten alot of free lunches, no confrontation, maybe all I would have to put up with is all the weaklings trying to talk to me all the time.

[CD]

A couple years back, Red, I and some others discussed this whole WMD thing. We tried in vain to explain to Big Ben that WMD is not only the Biological, Chemical and Nuclear (BNC) agents themselves but it includes the delivery systems such as Ballistic missiles, iron bombs, cruise missiles, artillery shells and more. If you have SCUD missiles and Artillery shells you have the capability to create and use WMD. Then, in '04 an Iraqi arty chemical shell FOXNews.com - Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq - U.S. & World was rigged as an IED. Yet, there are those that still believe that old Sadaam didn't have WMD's at all.
Yet, it was still insisted that there were no WMD's in Iraq.

One of the biggest threats to the military in Germany was the fear of CBU (Cluster Bomb Units) filled with either Biological or Chemical agents. Had the flag gone up, you would have lived in a chem suit 24/7.

I have always found it interesting that there are those that want to see absolute proof in the form of an attack and soldiers and civilians dying before they want to take action. Of course, they or there sons and daughters aren't out on the point of the spear as they say.

[Red Rider]

Yeah, we did, CD..........and we still agree. As someone that was there and helped put the data into the reports that Clinton and Bush got, (the feeders to NIEs before anyone knew what NIEs were - SO BLAME ME!) I am so sick of this lamness that other arm-chair warriors profess to be "knowledge" that I really just need to stay out of it.

Bush didn't lie about WMD, nor did Clinton. Nor did I or my men. Anyone who still wants to think that needs to grow the f-ck up.

Now, back to blissful retirement....OUT (again, of this topic - and really for the LAST time...not gonna argue with the ignorant about this anymore, only reason for this response is out of respect and backing for the founder, CD).....

Got me riled.....time for a
.....AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

[mmiller0424]

Originally Posted by ringo912

We have to remember our troops don't have a choice, when they are up for called up to duty, they go where their they are told, and I fully support our troops. I don't totally agree with the whole Iraq conflict. JMHO but this war is not about freedom or domacracy for the Iraqi people, even though they lived under a dictator, Bush's war is all about oil and nothing more.

Now this is not necessarily my opinion, but, a lot of people have a problem with the way Bush handled this whole thing. We have gone into many different countries to fight a war, however, Bush is the first president ever to conduct a full scale invasion of another country without being asked for help from the people of that country. So he basically has put himself on a list with Hitler, Mussolini, Stahlin, and a few others as a dictator trying to overthrow another country. And again it's all about the oil.

Your not actually comparing Bush to Hitler are you????? Get a grip on the issues instead of your nutsack..lol. The media only gives us a part of the story. I have family and friends in Iraq and Hadji land. They say we need to be there. The people are in a whole, very nice and polite. They need help. They have been screwed by there own people for so long, they dont know any better. I have seen pictures and video of the kids and adults in there day to day lives doing everything from shopping to suicide attacks. One of my family members has been hit by suicide bombers several times. I went to SA to visit some of the troops in the convoy while in the hospital burn unit. They still want to go back.
I guess my rambling means, its not JUST about the oil. It may be part of the picture, but its not the big part. People need to look deep into the issues before repeating crap the media throws around. After all, they are not concerned about the troops. They just want ratings.
Remember: It is better to have people think you are stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!!!!!!
I hope I didnt offend anyone with the rambling. But this topic hits very close to home.

[Art_NJr]

When you start going into the "Bush lied people died" thing, you instantly turned me off...

My comments aren't about winning a popularity contest or trying to force my opinions on anyone else, FlynDutchman.

What I've been doing a LOT of since 1991 is researching as many sources as I can, "mainstream", "alternative", whatever you want to call them. And if I had a dollar for every hour I spent in a University library before I got computers, I'd be a rich man. I can do a great deal on the internet but you can't do all of it & as I'm sure you know, there's a lot of BS to sift thru.

Not trying to say I'm better or smarter than anyone else, but I have done a lot more digging than the vast majority of people & I continue to dig. I don't like a lot of what I find & neither would you, but the way my old brain works is we have to deal with things the way they are, not the way we would like them to be.

[FlynDutchman]

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

My comments aren't about winning a popularity contest or trying to force my opinions on anyone else, FlynDutchman.

What I've been doing a LOT of since 1991 is researching as many sources as I can, "mainstream", "alternative", whatever you want to call them. And if I had a dollar for every hour I spent in a University library before I got computers, I'd be a rich man. I can do a great deal on the internet but you can't do all of it & as I'm sure you know, there's a lot of BS to sift thru.

Not trying to say I'm better or smarter than anyone else, but I have done a lot more digging than the vast majority of people & I continue to dig. I don't like a lot of what I find & neither would you, but the way my old brain works is we have to deal with things the way they are, not the way we would like them to be.

Originally Posted by Art_NJr

My comments aren't about winning a popularity contest or trying to force my opinions on anyone else, FlynDutchman.

What I've been doing a LOT of since 1991 is researching as many sources as I can, "mainstream", "alternative", whatever you want to call them. And if I had a dollar for every hour I spent in a University library before I got computers, I'd be a rich man. I can do a great deal on the internet but you can't do all of it & as I'm sure you know, there's a lot of BS to sift thru.

Not trying to say I'm better or smarter than anyone else, but I have done a lot more digging than the vast majority of people & I continue to dig. I don't like a lot of what I find & neither would you, but the way my old brain works is we have to deal with things the way they are, not the way we would like them to be.

I never said it was about winning a popularity contest. What I was trying to convey to you was when you preface your argument with the "Bush lied" garbage, it tells me that you have already formulated your opinion & now everything that is going to be spewed out of your pie hole is biased. Why do I say this ? Because most people know that the intelligence that the President got, is the same intelligence that congress got, and pretty much the same intelligence that Clinton got. Faulty information does not make a lie per se. However there are alot of out and out lies that come from the conspiracy theorist that are never challanged with fact, yet these whack-jobs are allowed to spew their crazy ideas without retort. For instance if you didn't know that steel begins to expand & lose its integrity at 1000 degrees F you could buy into the whole CIA demolition theory about the twin towers. But I know better. I understand building construction, temperatures at which certain fires can burn, and how it can cause catostrophic collapse. I applaud the time you took to research information, but if the information you have chosen to store in your craw isn't based on fact, current with commonly accepted current practice, or relevant to the subject, its all useless information.

[Art_NJr]

What I was trying to convey to you was when you preface your argument with the "Bush lied" garbage, it tells me that you have already formulated your opinion & now everything that is going to be spewed out of your pie hole is biased.

With respect to the "Bush lied" deal, what I did was post the link to an article - which you obviously didn't read. Certainly I have opinions, but as I clearly said & my previous posts show, I am not trying to force them on anyone. Please remember that I have said, "Don't take my word for it, look it up." If you refuse to do your own research, then you have nothing to go on other than your opinions, what you see on CNN, in the newspaper, etc.

Why do I say this ? Because most people know that the intelligence that the President got, is the same intelligence that congress got, and pretty much the same intelligence that Clinton got.

And you are an Intelligence officer who knows all this? Work for the CIA, NCIS, U.S. State Dept., etc.? No, most people don't know - they think they do, but they darn sure haven't researched anything other than what their credit-card balance is & probably not even that.

However there are alot of out and out lies that come from the conspiracy theorist that are never challanged with fact, yet these whack-jobs are allowed to spew their crazy ideas without retort. For instance if you didn't know that steel begins to expand & lose its integrity at 1000 degrees F you could buy into the whole CIA demolition theory about the twin towers. But I know better. I understand building construction, temperatures at which certain fires can burn, and how it can cause catostrophic collapse

No, I don't "buy into the whole CIA demolition theory" but I have worked on structural projects such as the Bank of America building in downtown Charlotte, North Carolina, I'm an engineer & no fire anywhere in the world has ever brought a steel-framed building constructed like the Twin Towers down. And unless you can convince God to change the laws of physics, it's not possible for fires started by jet fuel (highly refined kerosene) to weaken steel structures such as the World Trade Center buildings enough for them to fall.

I wasn't going to get into this since it really ticks people off, but the official Gov't. report is BS & anybody with experience in the big building construction trades would know that - don't have to be an engineer.

I applaud the time you took to research information, but if the information you have chosen to store in your craw isn't based on fact, current with commonly accepted current practice, or relevant to the subject, its all useless information.

Ok, so you're saying that the Constitution for the United States of America, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, the Definitive Treaty of Peace (1783), U.S. supreme Court cases back to 1793, the U.S. Code, etc, are irrelevant? Forgive me, but I have to say that "Commonly accepted current practice" screams IDIOT !!

[mmiller0424]

Didn't your mommas ever teach you not to talk politics or religion with bikers???
Everyone has an opinion. Its just a shame that no ones but mine counts...LOLOLOL

[FLHTbiker]

Before tempers start flaring (which some of us have seen before long ago) maybe we all should drop this thread and go onto something else. The weather is getting better so like what Harley says, screw it lets ride.

[Ultra Al]

good idea Al

[wvak47]

Originally Posted by FLHTbiker

Before tempers start flaring (which some of us have seen before long ago) maybe we all should drop this thread and go onto something else. The weather is getting better so like what Harley says, screw it lets ride.

I dropped out of this thread a long time ago for just that reason. As a Mod on other sites my guess is you have a lock button that just might need a ticklin' .

No matter who wins any election, the people lose in the end. Be it rights, money through taxes, jobs leaving country, whatever. I have heard it said, "Polotics is the second oldest profession in the world following prostitution. Funny how much they resemble each other." Don't know if it is true or not but I dang sure think it is close if not.

Sunshine, blue skies, clean open roads, yeah screw this lets ride.