[Panthera]

Sorry, I just have to rant a bit. Reading about the proposed massive government bailout of the banking sector, I get a bit pissed. Actually, I get quite pissed. WTF, why do the taxpayers get stuck yet again with this ****e! The f-ing bastards that took in millions in compensations walk away, and we are left holding the bill! The stupid f***s could not run an outhouse properly, much less a bank. If my taxes are going to support bailing these bastards out, I want to see some hard time by them in the federal pen, not some cozy minimum security crap, put them in with the general population, their crimes are as bad if not worse.

The worst part is the politicos playing like they had nothing to do with it. The useless twits on both sides need get the hell out of the way. I am not being particular here, I generally side more with the republicans, but in this case the dems have some correct points, except that both the parties took the money and let this happen.

We never learn, not the government, not the voters, not anyone. I remember the S&L bailout, now this. If the debt being passed on to our children and grandchildren has to increase because on this crap, someone should be put behind bars. I am tired of the criminals walking free. The difference between a murderer and a corporate banker is the murderer only f's up a few lives, the banker f-ups millions! I want justice! I want the useless pigs to at the very least give back all the excess money they took the last 10 years or so. Give me a break!

Rants over! (for now)

[Tomflhrci98]

Greed and corruption attack all people, parties, races, and gender.
It's the human element.

Let's not overlook the fact that this country went from 9 trillion in dept to 10 trillion in dept in just one day.

But, I don't care. I just want cheap gas.

[SK]

The only way I'm for a bailout, is if the CEO and top brass of any company/bank/etc are not allowed bonuses, and/or big severances. While some sort of strict regulated bailout would stabilize the economy to a point (let's see what the global response is to all this in the next year or two), it still irks me that many folks sign, however misled or not, a contract for a house they damn well shouldn't get qualified for, and get to walk. I've seen recent news reports of folks buying another house at a good price because they're low right now, and walking away from a foreclosure at the same time.

[Panthera]

In addition to those that bought and now cannot afford due to finance companies giving loans where they should not have, we also have speculators who purchased homes thinking the price would rise forever, and then now have a home worth less than they paid, so they walk away. I can somewhat sympathize with those that bought their homes to live in and may not have fully understood their mortgages, but the speculators should not be given a break, and the CEOs and execs of the companies we have to rescue should be behind bars, as they let these loans go through, they put money up for the worthless securities, and now want to say they didn't know. The warnings and writing was on the wall, some very respected people have been warning them for years about this.

[Red Rider]

They're saying "no bailout = recession". And I even think that they are at least likely to be telling the truth this time. So bring it on! We've been through recessions before, and while they suck, they do end. I think what would be worse is the cost of the bailout. Too much of the financial market has been smoke & mirrors lately, let's get it back to loans based on asset value and repayment. Time for some "tough love".

We can't overcome a government-screwed-up market by more government-screw-up intervention.

[Panthera]

I agree red, it might be a recession without the bailout, and it might be a rough one, but we cannot afford to bail out the companies that screwed up in the first place. Another 700 billion in federal debt, when we already have too much of it as it is. Putting the politicians in Washington in charge is just putting a different group of greedy corrupt thieves in charge. Their management abilities are well known for being completely lacking.

[kruiter51]

First, the Board of Directors of these companies should be fined and jailed. Secondly, the CEOs and CFOs should be fined and jailed. All their assets liquidated to alleviate some of the debt loss. Third, the appraisers who inflated the worth of a home so that the individual(s) could float higher Home Equity Loans, should lose their license to practice. Fourth, the people who bought a home, knowing they couldn't afford it or that their debt ratio to income was way out of whack, should lose their home. Rent what is available. And lastly, come November 4, do not vote for any incumbent office holder. Clean the slate, rewrite the rules, hold people accountable for their actions, quit rewarding failure and be responsible to the people you serve. My two cents.

[chucktx]

Originally Posted by kruiter51

First, the Board of Directors of these companies should be fined and jailed. Secondly, the CEOs and CFOs should be fined and jailed. All their assets liquidated to alleviate some of the debt loss. Third, the appraisers who inflated the worth of a home so that the individual(s) could float higher Home Equity Loans, should lose their license to practice. Fourth, the people who bought a home, knowing they couldn't afford it or that their debt ratio to income was way out of whack, should lose their home. Rent what is available. And lastly, come November 4, do not vote for any incumbent office holder. Clean the slate, rewrite the rules, hold people accountable for their actions, quit rewarding failure and be responsible to the people you serve. My two cents.

great ideas!!!!! but, easier said than done.....too many lawyers in there pockets and lots of money to line the political pockets.

[steveb]

I received this email this morning and thought it would be pretty neat to get everyone's reaction to it. Do not know who the person is who wrote it, but he's got a great idea if it could only be followed thru.
Hi Pals,

I'm against the $85,000,000, 000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000, 000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,0 00 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Di vidend

Of course, it would NOT be tax-free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000, 000 right back to Uncle Sam.
But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife has $595,000 .00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.

Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads.

Put away money for college - it'll be there.

Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.

Buy a new car - create jobs.

Invest in the market - capital drives growth.

Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves.

Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else.

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ inc luding the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.

Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General.

Sell off the real estate.

Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC.

And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

Kindest personal regards,

A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic.

PS: Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's good for a laugh

[Art_NJr]

We never learn, not the government, not the voters, not anyone. I remember the S&L bailout, now this. If the debt being passed on to our children and grandchildren has to increase because on this crap, someone should be put behind bars.

We're already paying for debt built up from previous generations & have already passed on to our children & grandchildren a debt that's mathematically impossible to pay. No Gov't. "bailout" will fix the system & you can't fix the system with the very entity which created it. That is the Federal Reserve, which is neither federal nor a reserve - it's not a Gov't. agency, never has been & doesn't even claim to be.

The "Fed" is a privately-held banking cartel, it creats "money" out of thin air & has since it opened its doors in 1914. Congress created the Fed (Federal Reserve Act of 1913) & Congress can also un-create it, but they won't. Here's a glimpse into how it works - say the Chairman of the Fed wants to put $100 million more currency into circulation - the Fed places an order with the Bureau of Engraving & Printing (is a Gov't. agency) for the number & denomination of bills it wants & pays the printing cost of approximately 3 cents per bill (no matter the denomination). Then the Fed LOANS that currency into circulation @ face value + interest. So if the Fed ordered all $1 bills, it'd pay $3 million to get $100 million to loan to the banks.

Going a step further, say you want a new credit card with a $10,000 limit, you go to the bank & you're approved. The bank records the new account as an "asset" just as if you'd deposited $10,000, even though you didn't deposit a dime. The bank can then use that "asset" to borrow $8500 from the Fed @ the "discount rate" & loan it to someone else. Say I want to buy a bike that's for sale for $8500 & I get a loan from that bank (based on your credit acct.). The seller takes the check I got from the bank & deposits it in his account. His bank can now borrow 85% of that deposit to loan to someone else. You can carry this out 11 times & your bank is making money off your credit card account before you even use it.

The Act which created the Fed created the biggest "Ponzi scheme" of all time & it cannot continue working forever. I'm rather surprised it's lasted this long & we're seeing it crumble before our eyes. What is bringing it down is not the buying & selling of things which have real value - like a factory that produces products people want to buy - it's the buying, selling, loaning & borrowing of credit which has no real value & isn't backed up by anything other than a promise to pay in the future. Pay with what? More credit. The Fed comes right out & says the system only works on credit - real money, backed up by something of real value, isn't even part of the equation.

People think backwards in terms of money & here's a simplistic example - if a dozen eggs was $1 last week but it's $2 this week, does that mean eggs just became twice as valuable? Not unless 1/2 the chickens in the world just died. It means the value of the money you use to buy the eggs dropped in value. Just in the last 4 years the Fed has created $4 trillion of new "money" which is backed up by ..... nothing. Simple economics says the more there is of something the less valuable it is & flooding the market with more dollars most assuredly drops the value of each.

"Money" is merely a medium of exchange & any currency, dollar, Euro, whatever, is only worth what you can exchange it for - it has no intrinsic value @ all. Just look @ the difference between the time period when the dollar was tied directly to gold & the time period since 1933 when it hasn't been. From 1800 to 1932 & with the exception of the Civil War, a Troy ounce of gold remained in the $19.39 to $20.67 range. After the "Bank Holiday of 1933" (which FDR created under the direction of the Fed), gold went to $32.32, then to $35, then remained "relatively" stable until 1971, when Nixon abrogated the Bretton Woods agreement & stopped trading gold & dollars with other countries.

Gold went to $43.80 in '71, $65.20 in '72, $114.50 in '73, $195.20 in '74 & it's never been stable since. (See e.g.:
Historical Gold Prices/Price 1800-2008 , Market, History, Bullion, Ingots, Bars,: from Finfacts Ireland
But the amount of gold in the world & the amount of labor involved getting it to market hasn't changed - it's the "value" of the dollar which has changed & will continue to drop. Oh, it'll bounce up periodically like it recently has, but look @ the 200-day moving average & longer terms & you'll see a continuous slide towards -0- where it will go. It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when.

The long & the short of it is that as long as we use a "fiat money", "fractional reserve" monetary & banking system, we're going to be in deep trouble that only gets worse. The only solution is for Congress to take back its Constitutional authority "to coin money and regulate the value thereof" & un-create the Fed they delegated that authority to. But don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen - all Congress will do is continue to apply "toxic Band-Aids" & make promises they can't possibly keep. Think it's bad now? Just wait 10 years when the "$53 Trillion Asteroid" hits - that's the estimated amount we'll have to come up with to pay for "entitlement" programs including social security & Medicare - nearly 4 times the entire U.S. economy.

[kruiter51]

I think Bush had it right when he called it "fuzzy math". I like the idea of the family plan and the idea of abolishing the Federal Reserve. Get back to real money. Either you have it or you don't. Credit and fuzzy math has crippled the U.S. and if this continues, will bury the U.S.

[Art_NJr]

Originally Posted by kruiter51

I think Bush had it right when he called it "fuzzy math". ...

Last night I heard that when a reporter questioned the $700 billion number, Secretary Paulson's answer was that it wasn't based on any hard data, they just wanted a round number that was really big. In other words, they don't have a clue as to what a bailout would actually cost. And since the value of the dollar changes all the time, on an overall downward trend, there's no way to get an accurate estimate.

In the meantime, JPMorgan Chase paid $1.9 billion for the valuable part of failed Washington Mutual (the retail branches) which could generate $2-$3 billion/year net income. As Ronald Reagan said, "Government can't fix the problem - government IS the problem." Get Gov't. out of the markets & like water, they'll always find their own level. But to stay that way we have to shed the fiat money, fractional reserve system & return to money backed 100% by something of real value. Historically, gold & silver has always been the best choice.

[Panthera]

The scary part is that it probably will pass, with additions and earmarks of course. What a load of crap. Looking at the federal budgeting system, they make these banks and investment houses look good. They have the advantage of being able to print more (and water it down more) but the federal deficits and debts even without this plan is ridiculous as it is, now we want to put them in charge of the mess!

If the average family ran their finances the way the government does, everyone would be bankrupt. It is one thing to take on long term debt for long term things, like homes for the family or major infrastructure investments for the government, and some short term debt where needed, but the government is doing the equivalent of buying beer and pizza on a thirty year mortgage.

[mwelych]

Was rejected!!!

[Panthera]

Originally Posted by steveb

I received this email this morning and thought it would be pretty neat to get everyone's reaction to it. Do not know who the person is who wrote it, but he's got a great idea if it could only be followed thru.
Hi Pals,

I'm against the $85,000,000, 000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000, 000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

Bad Math, 85 Billion/200 million is $425. Interesting perspective, though, if we calculate how much the federal gov. spends per year, it works out to $10,000 for every man, woman, and child. Most taxpayers are not paying that amount, how could they, so a very few are paying a whole lot.

Perhaps if everyone had to foot the bill evenly, they would demand that the bill be much less?! Just a thought, it would never work.