Liquid cooled vs Air cooled

Here is a question that has been burning a hole in my head.

When shopping for my bike I considered Harley but from the advice given from people that I knew I decided to buy a Japanese bike. The primary reason. Quality. As with cars and now it would seem with pickup trucks the Japanese vehicles are superior. I was told that the same applied with motorcycles. I was told with Harley you are paying for the name on the gas tank. Another reason was that the Japanese V-twins for the most part are liquid cooled but the Harley engines are air cooled. This I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. A liquid cooled engine will far outlast an air cooled engine. Am I way off base making that statement? I realize that Harley had Porshe design the V-twin that powers the V-Rod but thats it. Why does Harley stick with the air cooled design? What about total engine overhaul mileage or engine top end overhaul mileage between the two designs. Does anyone have any numbers? I must be missing something because there are a lot of Harleys on the road.

John

Flame Deleted!

For what it's worth here is my two cents worth.
I bought a 2002 Honda 1100 Shadow in the summer of 03. Was totally disappointed with the performacne and the ride wasn't all that great either. In 04 I traded it in on a new 1800 Goldwing. Lost my butt on that deal! In the next three years I put 4300 miles on the wing. Great ride and can't beat it on the open road. BUT, I had that Harley bug and couldn't shake it. In May of this year I sold my wing and bought a new Ultra Classic. In less than two months I've put over 3200 miles on it already! (I expect that the wife and I will put better than 6000 miles on it before the end of the riding season here this year!) It handles better on the everyday roads than the wing ever could be! On the Harley you just set back and feel the roar and enjoy the ride! Nothing like it!!

Never go back to a rice burner again!

RDean

ps Did OK selling the wing outright. Didnt loose quite as much as I did on the Shadow. One thing for sure, HarleyDavidson didn't want it on trade!!:roflmao:

On average, a water-cooled engine will last longer than an air-cooled engine. There isn't much debate about that. One of the main reasons is tolerance. An air-cooled engine has to be able to handle a wider-range of temperatures and therefore are a little looser in tolerance. I don't know near as many air-cooled engines lasting over 100k miles as water-cooled. I believe one of the main reasons HD has stayed with the air-cooled setup for so long is a lot the faithful would be highly upset if HD coverted most of their bikes to water-cooled. Just look at the V-rod..it's taken a while for folks to accept it, and it's still not a big seller (though probably their most reliable). One of these days emission controls are going to be so tight that air-cooled engines will have a hard time passing smog checks. I wouldn't be surprised in the near future to see a larger displacement version of the V-rod engine in an EG.

Harleys aren't the end-all to bikes, nor is any other brand. They're well built now days and have more options than most out there, but I wouldn't buy one just because someone else says to (screw peer pressure). I recently road a new Yamaha Stratoliner in Tucson and it's far better than any previous Road Star they've built to date. I was quite impressed with it's stock power (better than a stock HD) and handling was very good. Is resale as good as a HD? Probably not, but then you're paying less to begin with. Then again..with the recent changes HD made to their engines, it made the earlier TC's used prices drop.

I'm not trying to knock HDs, they're a very good bike..I'm just partial to Yamahas because I've had such good luck with them. I think their fit-n-finish is top notch. Would I ever buy an HD? I won't say never..who knows. The beauty of America is the right to choose and the "buy American" is a bunch of crap (Honda Gold Wings are made in America)..it's a free country. I would never try to sway a person one way or the other..just tell them to look at all your options and then decide.

I come from the other end of the spectrum. I have purchased bikes for economy. My last bike was a 80' Honda CB900. This was a nice bike and I liked riding it. I purchased it for $800. About a year ago I found a 78' FLH basket case. After building it (which was a labor of love in and of itself) I found that it I enjoy it much better - it rides better. As far as how I was treated riding a rice burner there was no problem, I was accepted by Harley riders as one of their own. Also working on the Honda was a nightmare, the Harley has been a dream, it is much less complex, and parts are much easier to find, and help is easier to find. As far as lasting longer the Honda is 28 years old, although it doesn't see the road much anymore. The Harley is 30 years old and still running strong. However the Honda is air cooled as well.

WOW!!

Thanks for the kind words Clem! Thanks for making a brand new rider feel welcome on this forum! "Making a statement"? Nothing could be further from the truth. Life is a learning experience. When you don't know something you ask questions. Liquid cooled vs water cooled. Didn't make any sense to me. Don't see many cars and trucks that are air cooled. Justed wanted to know why. Air cooling made no sense to me. Posed that question because you guys ride bikes alot and know a lot about them. I do not. I figured that you guys would be able to answer it. About my bike purchase again didn't hardly know anything about bikes. I listened a lot. Weighed what I had heard and then made a decision. Did I make a wrong decision? Maybe I did. I know this. So far I love this bike! As far as superior vehicles? Who just overtook GM to become the number #1 seller of vehicles? What vehicles come out on top in just about any test you would care to imagine, saftey especially? I beleive last time I checked both Ford and GM are damned near broke and Diamler Chrysler is having problems as well. What do I drive? A Dodge Ram 4x4 and I love it to death! Only had one Foreign made vehicle in my life and that was a Toyota Camry that was in my family for 21 years. We put 346542 km. on it. The only thing that ever went mechanically wrong with the drive train besides routine maintainence items were several alternators and a distributor shaft . That it. Nuf said.

Whats with the personal attack? I would NEVER stoop that low.

Thanks to Chucktx and Kenfuzed for the helpfull torque wrench advice. Much appreciated. This will be my last post on this board

John

You may be paying less up front for a Yamaha, but your not getting the same bike. Take the Midnight Star for example: About 14K OTD. Now add the extras to get to a HD Heritage Classic, Windshield, Saddlebags, Passing Lamps, etc. With the prices of the aftermarket parts your right up there with HD prices. America may be the land of free choice, but just remember. It may be built here but the profits still end up in Japan. So you should feel right at home when Japan or some other foreign country takes us over. And if you look at most of the foreign made vehicles sold in this country, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc, they have had more recalls than the American ones. Thirty years ago I would have agreed that the **** had a better product. But today it just bullsh$t.

Well, In my opinion, the entire question is a flame.....! Plenty of derogatory statements but OH WELL, he's the 'new guy'...everyone rally 'round. And the truth is....

And this will also be my last post on this board. Too many *****'s!

If Clem can't give a response without flaming a new guy, then I won't miss him. What happened to brotherhood of motocyclist?...Do you only qualify if you ride HD?

Anyway, I don't have anything as far as water vs. air cooled right now that hasn't been covered, but I would like to point out something that HD's are not given enough credit for.

THEY HANDLE GREAT! I recently wrecked my first HD, and was faced with canceling a trip to the black hills this first week of July, or renting one when we got out there. Now we went with another couple of our friends who were seeing the black hills for the first time...They both ride metric...one a Honda sabre 1100 and the other the new Yamaha V-star 1300 [both liquid cooled].

Now I've ridden the yamaha before and it rode real nice; but before I got to pick up the rental, I rode the Honda through the hills for about 20 miles, and found myself scared to death of the handling. I wasn't sure if it was my skills deteriorating after a month without a bike, or what...but the next day when I got back on an HD touring bike [roadglide] and took those same mountain passes, I KNEW it wasn't me. That Honda shadow sabre has terrible handling compared to any HD I'd ever ridden.

Before you bought any bike, you should try to ride them first. In the days of Harleys waiting list, that wasn't usually possible; but now most Harley dealers have a demo fleet you can take out for a test spin. The the riding experience make the decision for you.

PS: Having ridden several metrics, there is only one I recommend to friends who say they can't afford HD...and that is the Yamaha star line of bike...very good motorcycles.

John,
Don't give up on this forum because of one person's opinion. I didn't read what was posted because it had been removed before I signed on. I have been reading this forum for the past year or so and have never seen anything but a willingness to help anyone especially new riders and biker chicks . Stick around and ask the dumb questions.....I need some company.
I am also a fan of high quality stuff. I have purchased Chevy trucks that were a disgrace from a fit and finish perspective but also were very unreliable. That moved me to Toyota back in the '80s and they are great vehicles. I recently changed out my Tundra (the best vehicle I have owned) for a Chevy Silverado. I needed a 3/4 ton and the Tundra couldn't hack it. I am very pleased with the fit, finish and overall quality so far. Now if it will be reliable for a couple hundred thousand miles, I'll buy another.
I am also very pleased with the quality of my '05 Harley. I knew of the reputation Harley had got back in the '70s but had heard they were better. They are but I'm sure your bike is built great also. No company will stay in business very long anymore building crap. Competition is too great. I love my Harley but if it let me down on the side of the road several times, I would be looking elsewhere.
Hope to be seeing more questions from you.
Slim

For me it is much more then a motorcycle, it is the sound, the rumble, the feel, the smells, the total experience of it all.....A 10 mile ride in my muscle car puts a bigger smile on my face then any ride in my other cars. Wasn't it Harley that coined the phrase "If you need to ask, you wouldn't understand?"

You did make an interesting statement at the end of your post I totally agree with though................

"I must be missing something because there are a lot of Harleys on the road."

I would agree with HRK, I too felt a twinge of flame with the original post as well as with the commnent in SK's post that "Buy American is Buillsh##. But hey, it is America and everyone has a right to choices and opinions. My divorce attorney always told me, "For every action there is a consequence".

I worked in automotive for 31 years. It's no secrete that the Big 3's stockholders and employee's lived of the fat of the land for many years. Pumping out vehicles was their main concern. not quality. Why did they have worry, they were the only kid's on the block? They laughed when Honda shipped the first Civic to the US, with it's 12" wheels and 1600cc motor. Their not laughing now.

No doubt years ago US manufactures pump a lot of poor quality products out of ther plants. When they finally woke up to the reality of the situation, they realized they waited to long and have been playing catch up ever since. However, today they make many different models of quality vehicles that can compete with any foreign vehicle. I'm on my fourth Chrysler Mini Van, couldn't ask for a better vehicle. I have put at least 150k on everyone of them and have to only do the normal routine maintenance. I currently have two of them, a 98' with 180K and an 02' with 70K. Their great on gas milage, don't leak oil, and have a nice ride. My 98 still has the original exhaust system on it. Quality is not the problem.

The reasons the US car companies are going broke are numerous. From mis-mangement to high health care costs. For every actively working GM employee, GM is paying health care for two retired employees. Foreign car companies don't have health care costs, the government pays it. Bottom line is everyone makes their own choices and you live with them. But I prefer to make my choices based on fact, not based on what someone else thinks or how things might have been 30 years ago. I have a 02 Heritage Classic and haven't had to anything but regular maintenance on it. I have just turned 25K on it and I would ride it to anywhere in the country without a thought about it not getting me to my destination. There are many good vehicles and bikes out there, and there are some very crappy ones too, both American and foreign.

I think it would be better to fix our american health care system which has doubled in price in the past 7 years. Healthcare costs are going to bankrupt this entire country if somehow they don't get the greed in check.

I know there are lots of factors, from petty malpractice lawsuits, to drug companies trying to recoup R&D costs before their patents run out and their formulas are made generic; but this cannot go on for the sake of the people who are already retired with pensions [which they earned and shouldn't be reneged on], nor those of us still in the workforce that are actually losing buying power each time we get a 'cost of living increase' that doesn't even cover the now higher medical premiums.:soapbox: