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Wicked Hot Start Kickback

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Tech Talk' started by Lucifer, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Got to the point I hate pulling in to a gas station,or anywhere for that matter:banghead....Sounds like the primary is coming apart when I hit the button....I cleaned all the cables and ground the paint off the muffler support bracket that the starter bolt goes through...My cop bike has a 7" ground cable that bolts to the frame right in front of the battery and has another 13" cable that goes from that point to the starter also I believe it's the regulator ground with a star terminal between the 2 ground cables,all terminals have star washers....Still kicking back...I tried feathering the start button with limited success....Battery is fully charged...
    I believe the causes for kickback are...low battery,bad grounds, idle timing advanced,too much fuel,not enough fuel and compression too high...Am I missing anything??
    Compression is 200PSI front and 190 rear,bike has seemed to start running rich for some reason,mileage dropped from 40-43MPG to 33-35MPG last few tanks...
    Punched in the numbers for the build(kind of a Joe Minton build) and Big Boyz calculator says I should be at 185PSI with zero deck height and 85cc chambers(neither were checked when my "buddy" put it together for me,so I'm thinking it may be carbon build up raising pressure...
    Before I try to learn how to make adjustments to fuel and timing(if I can adjust timing on a PCIII).....are there any other things I can check.....Is there a way to check Head Temp Sensor other than replacing...I hate replace parts on a guess it could be A problem, causing rich running,poor mileage??
    Getting frustrated,starter clutch has been taking a pounding along with drive and ring gear....I'd like to cure this before I loose the starter clutch or break teeth....:eek:
  2. marc 55

    marc 55 Well-Known Member

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    I use to get that all the time with my Wide Glide after I had the engine bumped up to 95...Scared the chit out of me...Called my indy who said the cure was to just blip the starter real quick (fraction of a second) before starting...And then it should fire up with no problems...It worked for me...I have been told by some and don't know if it is true that sometimes when the engine stops the crank will actually roll back a little and the starter blip gets everything going in the right direction...Good luck...
  3. charlie46

    charlie46 Well-Known Member

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    Could it be too much fuel? Maybe getting past the float valve while you're stopped? Too much fuel on a hot start will do it.
  4. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hot start kickback can be caused by those things you listed, however the significant reduction in mileage indicates a failure in the EFI system.

    A bad temp sensor is common on the evos and would cause the ECM to dump fuel if it's not registering a temp increase.

    I forget the exact readings but you could remove the sensor from the bike
    and put it in a cup of boiling water, have a meter setup on the sensor to register the change, if you don't see the meter changing or moving much at all it could indicate a bad temp sensor. I'd start there.

    As to the kickback, on my 95 with 10.5 comp it would do it because i didn't put
    in compression releases, the consensus is that the pistons being hot, would pre-ignite on the first compression stroke and depending on where they sat would kick back hard.

    So don't open the carb one iota, do not give it fuel at all on hot restarts, the initial burst of fuel in the air is pre-igniting. To help, when you go to do a hot restart don't mash the button and let it kick or try and crank like normal, just press it lightly, quickly and get the engine to turn, then go to start, no added fuel.

    If you ignition has a spark delay feature for startup on EFI models engage that feature, it allows the engine to rotate without spark happening to help, but you still should not introduce fuel at a hot start.

    The other thing is you could have a lifter bleeding down quickly, this results in a valve closing that should be open for that particular time in the rotation, This raises starting compression, SNS makes travel limiters for lifters, easy to install, and eliminates the lifter from bleeding down.

    I'm betting cold starts are not a problem.

    Fix the temp sensor/EFI problem then
    have the battery tested for load, if it's good
    then maybe you need to install comp releases this winter.
    Lucifer likes this.
  5. marc 55

    marc 55 Well-Known Member

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    Cold starts were never a problem for me...
  6. Red Rider

    Red Rider Well-Known Member

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    I know this may not make sense (I still ain't figured out why) but my FLHR does that when it is nearing time to replace the battery. As I have had it for 15 years now, and it has done that every time and been cured with a new battery, I just accept it as so.
  7. Roadster guy

    Roadster guy Well-Known Member

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    Sportster does it, only when hot, and only when people at the coffee shop are looking. Tell bystanders to look away, and see if problem is reduced before spending any money on repairs.:) Hope this helps.
  8. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    sounds like possibly a leaking injector . hard starts and rick exhaust . gets worse as it gets hot hard as hell to start with all that fuel vapor.
  9. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep that too or bad pressure regulator etc
  10. cowboy

    cowboy Moderator Staff Member

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    your king's a 03 right, so delphie efi , start looking for fuel leaking into the cyl's , my 03 e glide started that , so when it was warmed up after a good ride I pulled a plug & let it set about 5 min & could smell fuel in the front cyl
  11. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks fellas:cool:Taking the bike in to local Indy tomorrow,ditching the Michelins and putting on a set of Cobra's and rear wheel bearings...I'll see if he can test fuel pressure....How do I check for a leaking injector?? Like cowboy said,pull the plugs and smell for fuel???
    Also,when I reconnected the ground cable to the battery I got some real tiny sparks... No security system on the cop bike,does the ECM or anything that would have a little constant draw??
    I'll check the electrical diagnostic book tomorrow to see about checking head temp sensor...
  12. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Little Canada Day hangover today:hurting:...Pulled plugs this morning,front looks rich and wet,back looks pretty good,maybe a tad rich but dry....I think I could smell fuel,but right now,I'm not quite sure what I smell...lol
  13. FLHTbiker

    FLHTbiker Moderator Staff Member

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    My 01 Springer that was bumped to a 95 inch would do that at a Gas station. Sounded horrible, like I was tearing the motor up. I rejected the carbs and also had had pressure relief valves installed. Took care of the problem completely.
    I installed a new battery to but it didn't stop the issue.
  14. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Comp releases would probably cure the symptoms but not the problem...Indy doesn't have a fuel pressure tester,so I may pick one up myself because I can probably buy one cheaper than the cost of having the dealer do the test for me...
    Battery is not the problem and with the gas mileage drop I don't think too little fuel is the problem either lol....
    HRK got me thinking about the lifters:eek: because I took them apart and cleaned cloth out of them twice so it's possible one is weakened I suppose,hope I find it before I get that deep(stock pushrods)
    So for now I'm going to run a few tanks with Seafoam to see if it's just a dirty or stuck injector,decarbonize the pistons then maybe unplug to Fuel Moto PCIII in case something went screwy with it...
    I don't think the compression is too high for a stock starter...Still open to suggestions....:)
  15. hogcowboy

    hogcowboy Active Member

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    Is this problem with kick start or electric. Reason I ask is my 07 was doing it and the dealer said it was the starter being weak. They replaced it and sure enough, problem gone now for over two months. I was getting the bang grind sound every day.
  16. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Its electric...'03 cop road king delphi efi 95"...maybe solenoid plunger n contacts could use a cleaning...stock starter should be good enough to spin this motor
  17. hogcowboy

    hogcowboy Active Member

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    The starter is strong enough but there is a spring like a Bendix spring that gets weak from what I was told. All I know is a new starter and I haven't had the problem again. And I was told by other sources it was the compensator which never made since to me. That weak spring doesn't keep the gear driving everything in place. It pops out with a bang and then grinds. Do it long enough and it takes other things out as well. Just what I was told and it seemed to be right.
  18. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No the comps not too high although over time with all the kick back it's not going to be good.

    IF the battery is tested good
    and you have at least two grounds, one to frame, one direct from battery ground post to the starter mount bolts
    then you might have a leaking injector if that front plug was fouled.
  19. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Battery does seem good...didn't get a load test done on it but voltages were good...12.7v sitting,12.2v sitting with ignition on and I think it dropped to 11.6v cranking starter...
    Yeah,I can see a new starter clutch in my future,hoping I can solve this and get the rest of the summer out of it....People saying were supposed to have a good summer this year(about 3 weeks instead of 2 lol)
    I'm leaning toward a leaking injector,but I'd like to test Head temp sensor too,just have to find voltage values for it....

    hogcowboy...starter clutch/bendix is the weak link in the starter by design and when they break they can be replaced...Now if I find a smoking deal on a 1.4kw starter,I'd consider it when this clutch gives up....but it's only in the $60 ballpark for the clutch:)
  20. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    Stock starter is fine with good grounds and a good clutch. Im cranking mine at 202 psi .I dont even use the releases unless its been a long ass ride in the summer and the oil is thin were tje lifters have bled down quick. I run alot of spring pressure. Stock bagger batt also . I bought an all balls clutch 4 years ago never had a problem since.starter is an original 2000 model.

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