Freedom vs security

Just wondering how folks here feel about the idea of giving up some of thier liberty and freedom to make the country a better, safer place? What would you be willing to give up?

I'm with Ben Franklin on this one:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I would require some serious proof that it's necessary before I'd be willing to give up any freedoms at all. Shouting "we're at war!" isn't enough for me. We defeated the Soviets without giving up our civil liberties. Surely we can defeat our current enemies while remaining true to our ideals.

Freedom is what we're supposed to be fighting for after all.

I'm with Franklin on that one. But the way I see it, what freedoms are we being asked to give up? I mean, if ya don't want to get searched at the airport, don't fly on commercial aircraft. I hear all about how NSA or someone is watching our every move, but I know that is BS. They have roughly 40,000 effective employees and there are just too many of us to get much attention - unless we call Bin Laden's cell phone, that is.

Ya wanna know who really scares me when it comes to "Big Brother"? It's the credit card companies, the internet browser companies, the grocery stores, the online shopping firms, etc. I know enough about Uncle Sam to not worry he's coming for my guns. Too late for that one. But private citizens spy on us all, all the time. And there are no real safeguards holding them back. Heck, Shell Oil shut down my Master Card while I was on the road because it was being used in too many places for their liking! They tracked me to Washington & back...but didn't like how quick I covered the distance. Big Brother? Nah - Big Mother!

So keep your fields of fire clear.....and pass the ammo!

Marc, while that wouldn't bother me one iota, I don't think it'd make a difference to the terrorists. Too many terrorists live to die young. While I'll never understand the mentality of a "suicide bomber", I don't ever see changing their mind or tactics. Look at Hezbollah..they think they won (not that Israel really did either). We just need..as they say in the old West..keep heading them off at the pass. Unfortunately I think it's just a matter of time before they start sneaking suicide bombers across the Mexican border..so average citizens better be ready. I think all states should follow Texas and allow non-felons a carry-permit without having to jump through hoops or by the whims of your local sherriff.

Beheading

OK, a point was made that I feel may have been missed. Who but an Arab would......it takes a certain amount of commitment to get up close and personal with someone like that. It is one thing to drop a bomb and see an explosion or even pull a trigger and see a person drop. It is another to smell the fear and have blood on your hands. And that is the sort of commitment we are dealing with.

Again the point that young bucks are too stupid to be scared so they are willing to become martyrs. So you take them out without giving them the publicity. It is not necesasry that the world know how many jihad warriors we sent to paradise today. Simply that the trip be arranged for them. And to do that as economically as possible both in terms of human loss and financial outlay. We don't need MORE war we need SMARTER war.

Ever ask yourself, if we can get satelite pics of terrorist training camps, know where they are and what they are doing, how come we can't take it down? At one time there was something called national soverignty, but thats pretty much a thing of the past. Which is my main objection to our invasion of Iraq. Iraq had not attacked the US. And knowing that they had a sh*& for a leader doesn't make a case for going in to bring a better way of life. Some could argue that with gang violence and drugs etc the UN should send a peacekeeping force to East LA.

You know I love having open debate like this, hearing others opinions and seeing who can keep thier cool and back thier reasoning with facts and who get frustrated and starts to make it personal. Who listens and perhaps learns something they digest and make thier own and who will be as they are no matter what. I have learned things I didn't know. Heard opinions I might not have heard. I like that. And it is a great thing that such a diverse spectrum of ideas can be expressed with such overall civility. Because, in the end nothing will be decided here. No policy changes will come out of the bike talk forum...but whether online or in person people watching is the most fascinating of sports. Thank y'all for making it so interesting.

Ride Free................

Beliefs

No you won't ever convince them that they are wrong in thier beliefs anymore than you could people like Jerry Falwell that porn doesn't make a person a rapist, or that if ya don't believe in Jesus (and send him a check) your doomed. Perhaps as some people believe we create our own after life and they DO have 72 virgins. Me I feel that as long as you aren't imposing your beliefs on someone else ( something that I have yet to find ANY religion that practices) believe what you like. And we need to stop doing the same thing they are and making it a 'holy" war, as if such were possible. I have little use for someone that has to feel God is on thier side before they do what has to be done.
As to whether you can go after terrorists in another country.. well thats what we did in Iraq. And the Israelis have been doing it for years. Of course we have too just more quietly. And whats France going to do? Sure we would have to weather some heat from world opinion, but are even more folks gonna hate us? Is that even possible? And personally I don't care if they hate us or love us as long as they aren't attacking us. One of the reasons we pay everybody in the world is to have leverage like this USE it. Oh you are so mad at us? Ok then we will not send you any of our nasty money for 6 months and then talk again. Notify them that we need thier help...as it is going down.

As to the religous zealots sneaking across the border..... one thing I learned doing executive protection was rule number one: you cannot keep anyone truly safe. If someone wants a target badly enough they will take it out.

I've read mention here about profiling, and now am reading several stories or people writing into my local newspaper daily that we need to start profiling. I know..who's gonna really suspect grandmama or a child, etc? So far they're mainly Arab Muslims, but we need to be careful about walking down that slippery slope..ACLU and all that jazz. A guy wrote into the Las Vegas Review Journal this morning stating we definitely need to profile, but be quiet about it. How the hell do you be quiet about it?

I loved the cartoon this morning in the metro section showing a bunch of naked passengers on an airplane and the stewardess wearing a military helmet and flack-jacket telling the patrons their clothes will be returned at the end of the flight and welcome to the friendly skies.

Profiling

To me the "slippery slope" with profiling isn't the ACLU. It is complacency.Back in the 70's I had some friends that ran "interference" for some people bringing pot across from Texas to Louisiana. The interference fit the profile, either on bikes or in a psychedlic painted VW bus, all long hair and hippydom. And they got jacked up most every time. And while they were having thier stuff scattered all over the highway the real runners cruised by in business suits in a rented Ford or Chevy. To me the real problem with profiling is it lets the perps know what you are looking for.

Sure Grandma is probably harmless...but I lived in New Orleans too long to believe what you see is what you get...some of the prettiest gals in the Big Easy were packing bigger packages than most of us are. That sweet little old lady could be Achmed aith some help from the FX guys.


Ride Free......

If it wasn't so true.....

In this case a picture is definately is definately worth those proverbial thousand words...Thanks for sharing FLHT

Ride Free.....

Religion notwithstanding....

"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"

The only way we are going to rid ourselves of cowardly, terroristic, roaches that hide themselves behind women, children, Geneva convention, and any other weak item they can find is to exterminate them. Period.

I'm done, don't DARE let 'em come near MY home.....

An eye for an eye

Scooter, I understand where you are coming from but would like to make a few points.
1) the whole eye for an eye law goes back to keeping things fair and having justice. If a person knocked out your tooth, you could only knock his tooth out not castrate him. If he blinded you in an eye you could take the sight of ONE of his, not both. It was a system of law for a society to live by. It was never intended to be used as a battle plan. If it is you are playing catch up. The way to make hostile forces not attack is to make those attacks so costly it is not feasible even to crackpots. Some of the gangs have a 3 for 1 policy. Take out 1 of ours we take 3 of yours. Israel just knocked out Hezbollahs power base by causing so much wide spread destruction that the populace lost so much they are pissed at Hezbollah. As one spokesman said (my paprphrase) Had we known Israel would have gone this far we would have left thier two soldiers alone. You do not strike fear in your enemies heart by playing tit for tat. My whole gripe with the Iraq war is just that. We are playing tit for tat, protecting the oil fields and bringing the Iraq people
Democracy. Screw that. I personally don't give a rats ass if they ever have a democratic government. Hell see what has happened to the US since we abandonded the idea of a Republic for a Democracy.
Had we gone in and leveled the place, destroyed the oil refineries and set the clock back on them a hundred years..and left them to sort it out. We would have made several points. One like being in a bar full of 1%ers you are NOT going to expect anything in the way of mercy if you jump bad. You will be rat packed. Two it would have said screw your oil. Yeah we need it but we can manage to find it elsewhere. Imagine if other countries in the region thought that we crazy Americans might come in and blow up thier liquid gold....without it most of them would be back herding camels and livng in tents. The oil is what powers thier economy. And they hold us ransom with it. Did you see the old movie, Billy Jack? Remember when the bad kid told Billy to lowe his weapon or he would kill his hostage. The guy siad if he didnt he was killing the hostage. Billy said no you are killing her then I am killing you. No negotiations...
As to if they come to your house...well my friend if they do...we are already so far in the kaka it may not matter.
As I said Scooter not hammering you just making some points...
War is senseless and barbaric and a total waste. It always has been. But to try and have anything except total war if you are in one is worse. As my Dad used to say walk away from a fight if you can but if you have to fight FIGHT TO WIN.

Ride Free........

Greybear... I like you... You are the diplomatic type... That's cool... My wife is the "Code of Hammerabi" type... It is interesting to see how she flips over stuff that is completely out of her control... Kinda cool to watch... Then she realizes she can't do anything about it and cools down... Cool stuff...