Help Wierd Dyno results

Long story short. I upgraded my 88 to a 103.. And could really use a hand trying to figure out what happened.

Here is the longer story

$9,000 later.. Here is what my Dyno looks like...

My Dyno Chart

So, here is the 9K question... What the heck is going on? The dealer says "it isn't what we expected" "Maybe it's the cylinders." "Did you know we're a "Gold Bar and Shield" award winner?"

Not what I expected either..

Here a links to my invoice with all the parts listed. I would sure like to know what happened and get some suggestions on what to do about it. BTW... My 90 day warranty will run out this Saturday!
My Invoice Page 1 of 3..
My Invoice Page 2 of 3..
My Invoice Page 3 of 3..

So far the top guesses are:
They didn't know what they were doing and the Dyno was bad
The Cam Timing is off
Thier is an oil seal problem and too much oil is getting to the engine

Thoughts?

I'm planning on taking a day off work heading back to the dealer and it would be great to be armed with information. My trust factor at this point isn't too high so I've been thinking about snagging a compression and leak down test before I head over..

Thanks much!

could be sumping, to much viscous drag, could be as simple as a bad oring in the cam chest or as bad as a scissored crank, just a guess, and yes the cam bearings are a known problem mine were blue at 25k I replaced them with torrington b 148s, the bearings were not as big of an issue as the tensioners but have heard many that have grenaded. Todd

JW, Your parts list are 3 pages of the same page.

The date on this is January 17. The date on the dyno runs is April 10. Did it take them that long to put this thing together??

Looks like you got the right parts (I don't know if 9K is right) but looks like it should work. I can't tell what cam you have from the parts list. Did you get new cams ?

From the dyno run is looks like a real high torque / low RPM cam. Torgue looks good at 2 grand but then it falls off fast. Not sure why.

where

where is cardboard?????????

Thanks, I updated the links on the invoice pages. Sorry about that. Yea, perplexing. I'm planning on taking tomorrow off work and heading over to the dealer. I hope they do the right thing. So far everyone agrees it's wrong and shouldn't look this way. I'll post again after the meeting but willl be checking in regularly.

Thanks.. Good point I fixed the Chart.

The cam is page 2 I think.. TW37 CAM .510" LIFT T.C.C. I'll take it for a run tonight, let it idle for about 5 minutes and drain the container and have a look see. I'm taking tomorrow off to visit the dealer.

Thanks a bunch. I just did a ride before I read your post and was getting did almost exactly what you said.

I've changed my oil before and the oil container is the plug dead center that is flush and is removed with an allen wrench. There are 2 other plugs. When I did this, the bike was NOT on a stand, I pulled the lower plug (left side) first and than the upper right side. You would have thought I was changing the oil. Even with the lower one pouring oil out the upper one was doing the same. I after a few quarts I finally put the plugs back in. There was so much oil I was afriad I pulled the wrong plugs. Did I? If not, I think we figured it out.

Can you send us a picture of those plug locations?
Some of us would like to know this. It's the first I heard of this problem.

this problem hasnt really started showing up until Harley started making junk cranks, mostly after 2002 or 2003, the plugs are in the bottom of the cases, sorry I dont have any pictures, Todd

I"m thinking I pulled the wrong plugs..

Here is a a picture under the engine I pulled the ones in yellow. I'm thinking I should have pulled the one in green. I'm going to refill the engine and take it for a ride and do it again. What's the right one to pull. I appreciate everyone's help on this!

Thanks again! I figured it was wrong, checked both and filled both before my ride today. Not much was missing from tranny.

OK... So we have it now! Got it... ! And the winner is Sumping for sure! 6oz out. Proof positive, I'm heading out the door to the dealer after lunch. Man am I learning I'm buying a service manual too since it seems I'm going to have to do more than I expected

Thanks again. I'll post what happens at the dealer!

Well, what a day..

I took the bike to the dealer armed with the data. The tech who put together the configuration to build the engine did so based on using the original heads. He freely admits that the final combination of parts is not one that he would have made. They insist that sumping isn’t the issue and that 6oz is within specifications and that technicians who are not 100% up on all Harley service training won’t know this.

They are committed to the idea that the problem is that the 103 Plus performance heads have far too large a port to provide to enough compression for the balance of the parts resulting in the performance problem.

Being a neophyte, my understanding was that I was getting a 103 without a 103 heads. So, when I saw a deal on 103 heads I called the service manger and asked if they could match the price. He instructed me to take that up with the parts department which I did. The parts folks told me that if I used those heads I would need to buy a new computer, headers and pipes. I purchased every recommendation made by the parts department.

The service manager did his best to insist the customers regularly ask for bizarre combinations of parts and they provide the service requested by the customer. He didn’t seem to think it was his problem since I (the neophyte) didn’t contact the tech and specifically ask his opinion on the combination of parts the Parts department told me I should have therefore they (the service department) have no culpability in the performance of the engine.

More to come

The Parts department delivered the items to the shop and the tech without contacting me regarding a possible problem built the engine anyway. He says, had we changed the CAMs and pistons to match the heads we would have been fine. The tech says, and I agree, that my normal riding is street, commuting and touring and not high for high performance. All in all, the fact remains that nobody told me not to put this combination together.

So.. The service manager offered to “split the difference” and find my old heads and install them if I paid the labor costs. I, on the other hand, didn’t think I should have to pay to fix a problem which should have been avoided had someone taken the time to tell me the combination was wrong. I didn't get how me paying to install my old heads was splitting the difference

I tried to use the following analogy… You design a house with a wall in the wrong place. The architect recognizes that if built as requested someone on the second floor could fall through the floor due to load problems. I asked the service manager, should the architect call the customer and explain this is a bad idea or just send the blue prints to the builder? The response I got made me realize we had a problem so I decided it was time to talk to the manager of the dealership.

After covering my history with Harley and this situation, the manager verified what happened with the tech and decided that they would cover the cost of replacement heads as well as the labor and provide me with a loaner bike. The tech commits (not in writing) that the new configuration will be very nice and perform as one would expect.

I would still be interested if, in fact, 6oz of oil is good. At least it looks like the dealership is willing to step up and do the right thing. If I can find some documented proof that 6oz is in fact too much it suggest the service manager isn't just trying to protect revenue but is lying to do so. I think the manger or owner would be interested in such information were it true.

OK.. So, at this point the dealer is going to replace the heads, cover the labor and provided me with a rental bike.

Thoughts?

I don't think 6ozs of oil in the crankcase is excessive...but being a "gold bar and shield" winner doesn't mean squat if they won't let a customer know the parts combination they selected won't work well together.
When my buddy was working at a Stealership he would let a customer know that it wasn't the best combination of parts and wouldn't go foward until the customer said"that's what I want" or would offer advice on a good combination to get the results he was looking for.
As far as I'm concerned any wrench worth his salt would do the same.
Parts guys and service managers alto they should,most times haven't got a clue what works with what and only care about your money.
Must be pretty easy to get that award they were bragging about.
I'm sure if you post here the results you're looking for in your build HRK, Todd and Tom could give you suggestions on engine combinations that would put a big grin on your face.
Good luck...really sucks to shell out that kinds cash only to be disappointed with the results.

I'm hopeful this will perform as the tech says. We'll see.. Once I get it back, I'll post the new Dyno. I'm learning Next time will be different..

I dont really think 6 oz of oil out of the plug is excessive either, seems to me 1 cup or 8oz is the magic number, let us know how you turn out, Todd