Here's one for you..Harley's on strike

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1585046,00.html



looking for concessions in good times? What do they know that we don't.

I don't know, I've never been a big supporter of unions. I was in the carpenters union for a few months and what a load of lazy, backstabbing, drug addict, drunk, idiots. I left, and went back to work in my own business. It seems the union was more concerned with having bodies on the job to fill their pockets, rather than qualified labor to perform a quality job. If you wanted to work a god job, you had to give the BA some quality scotch, cause that's what he liked. Screw that, I ain't filling nobody's pocket so I can go to work and bust my ass. Oh well, down off the soap box now, sorry. Anyway, I can't say much for the union at H-D, don't know anything about them, I only know what I experienced.

Never belonged to a union before. I work as a NAP (Nurse Apprentice) one day a week at a local hospital while going to school. The union rep nurse keeps asking me to join..it's optional. Have to admit though. In recent negotiations they got the nurses a decent pay raise, limits on nurse to patient ratios (depending on what kind of nursing you do), among a few other things..couldn't really have been done without them. Guess I might join once I go full-time after I graduate. Seems different though that joining is optional..maybe half have.

As for the HD plant..not sure how much they're asking the employees to kick in monthly for health benefits, but doubling the 401k contributions sounds sweet..do they equal out?

I've been in good unions and bad unions....Currently work in a 'good' union job. Like most any job, it all starts at the top....if the union leadership is weak or corrupt, the rest of the union will be crap too.

My old man, step dad, was in construction unions and I got a bad impression of unions from him even though he was a die hard union man. No, he didn't bad mouth 'em, I just watched and learned and, yeah, it's all about how little you can do for how much money and how many people you can put on one job. For instance, he ran heavy equipment. They had to have an "oiler" for every welding machine on any job. The "oiler" sat and watched the machine, started and stopped it, welder couldn't touch it, was the "oiler's" job. He didn't fire watch, either. Fire watches could only fire watch, no distractions, couldn't pick up this or that or plug in this or that, just sat with a fire extinguisher and hose and watched. These weren't minimum wage jobs, either, made good money! After high school, he wanted me to get a union card and get on as an oiler... My mother and I had other ambitions. I worked my way through four years at Texas A&M or I'd probably still be an oiler or some stuff. I still wound up working in chemical plants, but in air conditions laboratories at least.

But, then, out at the plant I'm retired from, they really NEED a union. They don't need the union as much as they need a contract. I don't know many, including myself, that actually make it to full retirement age out there before getting run off for some lame excuse, seems to be a trend. I was one year from full eligibility (which only meant I could have my insurance...for $350 a month... ) I had a lump sum and 401K built up, was our only benefits. I got 60K in lump sum retirement and had about 190K in 401K to retire on and that ain't a lot when you gotta live on it. I have everything paid for, no bills, though, so I make do. I run my small engine shop to make spending money and the wife is on social security disability from a bike accident, so I have enough. I'm in a lot better shape than most out there who are up to their noses in debt and don't save squat in the 401K. When it's their time, they'll be sleeping under a freeway somewhere. The pay scale out there is below everyone else in the industry, too, and it's one of the more dangerous places to work due to their total disregard for the work safety. I've worked in good plants, know what I'm talkin' about here. A place like that needs a contract, a union with grievance procedures, the things a union can provide for job security. I think of it more as signing a contract than as having a union. Working under a written contract, with rules written down in ink, not dreamed up at the spur of the moment to get rid of some old fart that's about to reach retirement, seems only reasonable to me.

I don't know the situation at the HD factory, so I won't take a stand, one side or the other. But, I'm sure what would happen if those folks were not under a collective bargaining contract of some kind. I've seen it in action in my life. My main gripe about unions now days is they give away dues to politicians, liberal ones at that. uke: I do not want my union dues going to support Hillary for president!!!!! uke: Spend dues on strike relief funds, things that can benefit the employee. Let the employee make up his mind who to support politically and who to vote for.

Greetings from Ontario, Canada

Three cheers for the Union.

If I didn't have the Teamsters (or any other good Union, for that matter) protecting me, I'd be earning $10.00 per hour and have all of my rights violated.
Komokaman

From a Local President and factory worker..I'm not sure of what's going on in Harley's ca negotiations but a swap for health care premiums for an increase in contributions to a 401 k..mmm I don't know enough about how your system works but the 401k contribution should be a given..a known number..heath care premiums are only going to go up unless for some wild reason that medicare finds its way into the mainstream...wasn't Hillary Clinton making noise about that a bunch of years ago? If the mood of the country was that of a political change for the next election with medicare on a major platform and being seen as a positive, Harley's local may look at maximizing their bang for the buck and make the motor company "buy" the increase on the 401K....the company is pretty smart though..I'm sure they know that medicare isn't there..yet..and health care costs are going to explode.

I work in a union job been in teamsters, cement masons, areospace, blah de bla, they all have good points and bad, and with a sixpack :cheers: I can probably argue:bicker: both sides. and do it legitamatly, maybe thats why I scored a 20 on the test

Bob, 401K contributions are a set amount max, but some companies match a portion, some match more, some don't match at all. The way Formosa Plastics did it, you could contribute up to 15 percent of your income before taxes (which I did, thank God) and IF the company made a profit after juggling the books of course, they'd match dollar for dollar the basic (five percent) contribution. IOW, they'd match 100% of 33% of your contribution. If the company didn't show a profit (one year they didn't), they'd only match 25 percent of that first five percent or 1/4 of what they match on a profitable year. It amounted to free money, wasn't a bad deal. My wife, who worked for the government, could contribute 20 percent, but they didn't match squat, government not being a profit making deal (or so they say, but if so, why are politicians all rich?).

Anyway, no way I'd give up major medical or agree to pay a portion regardless of the 401K. It's going to do nothing, but go up. And, yeah, Hillary care is what got the 94 republican congress elected. Wanna screw something up, let the government do it.... If it goes through, maybe I should run for office. There'll be one HELL of a lot more money to skim off the cream if it does. There has just GOT to be a better way than letting getting the government involved or what we have now, some better answer. Tax incentives and crap ain't the way, though. Heck, I don't show enough income to pay much tax, anyway, so how does that do ME any good? It's a cluster f....

HD On Strike

OK boys....now you got me on my soap box. My brother works in the carpenters union and your right, he'll tell you himself that there are a lot of usless f--ks in that group. I am not an advocate of unions. I worked in the automotive industry for 31 years and by far the UAW is the worst. In the early days of the union, 1930's thru the 60's they accomplished many great things relative to employee working conditions, ie. hours worked, fair pay and safety. However, the motto of the unions for the last 30 years has been "Do less for more". I worked as a union employee for 8 years, and never once did I need their representation. And the reason I didn't is because I showed up for work every day, did my job and did it right. And believe me I was no saint when it came to a late night party or poker game during the work week.

The unions as well as the executive levels of the auto industry have no one to blame but themselves for the current status of the industry. Back in the early 70's everyone laughed the first Honda Civic that hit our shores with it's 12" tires and 1600cc motor. They sold them in the Honda motorcycle dealerships because Honda did not have any car dealerships in the US. Last year, Honda made enough net profit to buy GM, Ford and Chrysler outright.

The employees at HD don't realize how lucky they are, and for that matter behind the times they are. Salary, non-union employees started paying part of their medical insurance costs 10 years ago. I don't understand why people think they are entitled to free medical insurance. This is a benefit that most companies can't afford anymore. And when employees do pay for part of the cost, it usually is not a huge some of money. Employes where my wife works pay $50 a month for full coverage. They only pay $10 for a office visit and $5 for any prescriptions. The cost of coverage for a family of 4 is $600 a month. So I don't think they have a bitch.

The companies are just passing down the costs they incure.The people in this country should ban together and go after the Medical and Pharmecutical industries that have been over charging the pubic and companies for years. But this won't happen because these billion dollar corporations fund the politicians. It's all about power and greed. America is no longer a country it's a corporation.

Take a look at the Enrons, K-Mart, and Telecom just to name a few that have screwed the american public and their employees. And yet these companies continue to give severance packages worth millions of dollars to these losers when they get fired. And HD fits right in this group with over charging us for their products and services. HD stock has gone from $45 to $72 in the last year or so. Have you seen any great advances in technolgy or product improvement from HD. Their new 6 speed tranny is having problems. Baker Trans is already selling a kit to fix the problem. Why can the Japs build a 2015cc bike with 110 hp and 120 ft/lbs of tourque and HD keeps spitting out the same old 64hp 80ft/lb V-twin at a higher price? Maybe HD should have used the millions they spent on their new musem on R&D for the bikes.

Well I guess that's enough whinning from me. It seems HD is offering a fair wage increase and doubling their contribution to the employees 401K plan. Not sure how much HD wants them to pay, but usually it's not a large sum. If they want the employees to pay part of the insurance costs, then all of them shoud have to pay. This means from the sweeper right up to Willie G.

Bottom line is this: The Unions are just a bunch scam artists who's only purpose is to protect the lazy do nothings in this country. You have to want to be brain washed to truly believe in their mission. As long as we have politicians, greed, Unions, EEOC, NLRB, ACLU, NAACP, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson the real americans in this country are screwed.

So boys...Live Hard, Ride Hard and trust only the ones that have your back.

Ringo,

Although I can't say that I agree with all that you say, I will say that I'm right there with you 95% of the way! Tends to be that employees don't know what they have until all is lost, then they want to sit around and P*ss about how they were wronged! Accept what must be and move on! Jeez, if things are THAT rough at Harley, then quit yer job there and send the factory and works to Texas! There's a lot of good folks here that don't mind working non-union!!

Hmmm, wonder if they have employee discounts????

Can I fuel the fire??? Go Ringo, Go Ringo, Go Ringo! Hahahaha, that oughta set some a**es on fire. Just f*ckin wit ya boys! :roflmao:

I think I got a handle on where Ringo's coming from..

pretty good post..I'm not on board with the union's purpose as stated but certainly some good issues raised..nice to see some examples such as Enron and the Medical and Pharmaceutical companies so it sounds like more than just the unions are a little incompetent..for lack of a better expression.
In a perfect world, unions wouldn't exist because a man's word was a man's word and a handshake was final. This does not exist in the world or market as we know it today. Weak legislation breeds unions..guys get sick and tired of being crapped on or just being thankful they have a job..that's no way to live. There's the argument that if you don't like it move on but it will eventually filter down to someone doing the job. I know we've got a bit of a bad rap for supposedly protecting the lazy ne're do wells of the world and I will admit, some cases are over the top..but this is what you guys hear..the extremes..in print or on the air..cause its news..and news sells, right? What you guys don't hear is of how guys like Goose get jacked,
What gets my craw is how the employees at Enron got jobbed/the customers of Enron got jobbed/ in fact, there was some question as to whether they impacted energy prices up here..they haven't proven it yet. The courts were a lot more lenient than I would have been.
A smart man would never work for anyone else because he could never really be his own man because he would be dependant upon the whims and will of his employer. I am not a smart man, I work for someone else. My employer and I agree on my working conditions and compensation. My union ensures that neither party renegs on their committment. The handshake here is in black and white in the collective agreement.
All we want is a safe place to work with a competitve compensation package

If it were not for the unions----

My dad was a union organizer for the teamsters in the 40's. I have met Mr Hoffa and I know what he did for teamsters no matter how big the smear campaign was against him. I have been union all my life until I went to work in real estate in 1972. If you think unions are bad you are right. If you think they are great, you are right. Things change as times change. Get a job at Wal-mart and live the good life but with-out the unions from the 20's thru the 60's we would all be less well off. It's not the unions I fear it is the government allowing all the jobs to go abroad. Regards, Jack

We all got good points and bad points for the unions. Truth is, without them some guys (and ladies) would still be gettin screwed by the bigwig execs. They definitely still have their place, just not for me that's all. Keep the jobs and the $$ here in our country. I STILL look for the union label, and the made in USA label, and I AM willing to pay more for it, partly because I want to spend my money here, and mostly because I think we produce better products! Just my .02

HD Strike

Hey...great to see a lot of grey matter stimulation going on. Looks like a great group here and I look forward to further discussions. Just want to say, not trying to p*ss in anybodies wheaties. I've been know to be just as full of sh*t as the next guy.

And Folsomjack you are correct, Hoffa was one of the great union leaders. I've lived in Detroit all my life. I still remember that summer day he disappeared. The name has changed, but the restaurant he was last seen at is still here. We put the country on wheels and the union in the country. In every industry you will always have a small percentage of problem employee's. The ones that don't want to come to work, or work when they do show up, etc. This creates heartache for the company, the rest of the employee's and the union officials that are bound by a contract to defend these individuals. Here's a couple examples;

We had a guy at a company I worked at for 25 years. This guy was suspended 6 times for drinking on the job. Based on the union contract and an idiotic law that some ACLU slug got passed, the company could not terminate his employment for being drunk on the job. The theory was that the guy's drinking problem might be due to stress on the job or some personal issue. Therefor the company was required to send him to rehab at their cost. So my question is: how many times should this guy be allowed to go to rehab before someone decides he is a danger not only too himself, but also to his fellow co-workers?

Now the second case is real classic. The foriegners are real good at abusing this one. One of the biggest reasons these guys show up for work is the free health care. Most of them are involved in some family business and don't want to spend their money for helathcare. They prefer to funnel it back to the al quieda camps in the homeland.

At this company we had several Hindu's and Muslim's using the contract language to work part time and still reap all the benefits. How the company and the union thought this was a good practice is beyond me. The contract language stipulated that you had to work a certain amount of hours each month to be considered a full time employee. I think this worked out to about 32 hours a week. So under the contract language this guy could miss 32 hours of work every month, work at the family business, and still get the benefits of a full time employee.


Sleepy, as local president I bet you've had a few cases where you didn't agree with the employee, but still had to defend the case. And bye the way Sleepy, don't sell your self short. Being a smart man is not based on how you make your living. There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that watch things happen, Those that make things happen, and Those that wonder what the f**k happened. And making things happen doesn't mean you have to be a genius or a bizillionair. Making things happen and being a smart man means taking care of business for you an your family. We can only hope that we make decisions in life that we feel are good for us. And if we work for other people, we hope they appreciate our contribution to the business.

So enough of my ranting, I think I'm getting carpel tunnel.

GOOD POST!

I'll agree with Seahag here ...good post Ringo. My thoughts on being smart were borne from a lot of frustration, contract negotiations time and too much work caused by being short staffed. I'm not sure how our negotiations will pan out..short story is that I've been beating my head against the wall and not feeling too particularly bright right about now..thanks for the good words though.
Your examples on employees rings true. I know up here a person doesn't have carte blanche on using the substance abuse/rehab policy. A lot of places will give you one to two chances and if you foul out again, you're gone.
Years ago we'd just phone the guy in sick, call a cab and send him home. Now ,some guys are likely to use a work refusal based on safety.
What I've found from "Canadians by choice" over "Canadians by chance"
is that they are much more aware of the ins and outs of the legal,judicial and constitutional components of being a Canadian citizen and are not afraid to either define or clarify them. There have been a good number of Charter arguments presented by minorities. This, at first, was accepted as someone who was trying to have the same rights as anyone else....as would be presented by their counsel. Now it is almost being regarded by the not so silent masses as an undermining of our Christian foundation..which I'm sure was is and will be debated by brighter minds than mine.
You're also correct in looking at how sometimes you gotta forget who and figure out the how to get the help...it ain't easy sometimes....merits of the case....merits of the case..[repeat where necessary]
It's been a trip for sure...not a lot of thanks to be sure but one good one is enough to make it worthwile

What happened to Hoffa?

I had left Detroit long before Mr. Hoffa was killed but I got the details of what happened years later,I checked it out with my father who was still in the loop at the time and he verified that, (1) Nixon commuted Mr. Hoffa's sentence to get him out on the street. (2) when Mr. Hoffa started to re-take control of the Union, which Frank Fitzsimmons had been put in to take care of things until Mr Hoffa got out of prison, the order to kill him came down. Only speculation from where, but after Fitzzsimmons took over they started supporting the republican party, some-thing Mr. Hoffa would never do,. Mr Hoffa was picked up at the Red Fox and only went along because Chuckie O'brion, a kind of adopted son and Frank Sheeran , known to Mr.Hoffa were in the car. The meeting was supposed to be with some eastern union bosses about the situation in local 299 and Detroit. He was driven to a House in East Detroit and in the entry smelled a set-up. Sheeran pushed him into the wall and shot him in the head. He was rolled up in a carpet , put into the trunk of the Buick, taken to a scrap yard on 7 or 8 mile road, the car and contents were crushed and fed into a scrap furnace that afternoon. All this crap obout "looking for Mr. Hoffa" is just crap because the F.B.I. know all about this and more. Sheeran is dead,confessed to this just before he died, the other two there that day are still alive . Regards, Jack