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LC-1 controller

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Tech Talk' started by cardboard, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    cardboard, Jan 30, 2008
    #1
  3. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    why
    hotroadking, Jan 31, 2008
    #2
  4. Slimjim

    Slimjim Active Member

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    Looks like it ought to work.
    Slimjim, Jan 31, 2008
    #3
  5. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    This is e expensive band aid fix, it is not a true tuner. Not playiing experiment with something like this on my bike. I paid too much for it.

    I will wait till Thundermax comes out with their new unit. :banghead:
    cardboard, Feb 1, 2008
    #4
  6. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    CUrrent Tmax works great
    hotroadking, Feb 1, 2008
    #5
  7. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Yep current TM works till you git to a 08 Touring bike where HD went to Drive by Wire. And they changed the ECU plug and added anti lock brakes, and changed the timing and all that threw a kink in the TM. If it would work I would have it on my bike. Talked to them yesterday and they are doing the show up north and said the new unit is not out and would be out when its out.
    I can't change my air box to High flow or put a cam in my bike till then.
    cardboard, Feb 2, 2008
    #6
  8. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That happens whenever HD upgrades systems or bikes, pretty common problem

    Same when they went from MM to Delphi Injection, everyone had to wait about a year for the aftermarket to catch up.

    You could add a SERT then get it dyno tuned about the same cost as the TMax if you have to get it done now.

    Me if I had an 08 I'd put on the SERT and filter and pipes and ride it for two years then when the warranty is shot, drop in a woods 6-6 (Actually I'd probably do that right away, just not tell anyone)
    hotroadking, Feb 4, 2008
    #7
  9. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Got any idea how much money it cost to buy a Sert and have it dynoed. I did a sert on my other bike before I got a TM, didn't care for the sert. Its also hard to find somebody that can dyno a sert very good. A dyno for a sert is 350.00 in itself. Before I will buy another sert I will find something else.:fight:
    cardboard, Feb 5, 2008
    #8
  10. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The cost to tmax and dyno an efi bike, professionally with a sert are about the same, I like the tmax but remember they are not perfect, I know of a few that have had to have modifications made manually to fix problems, and some that cannot get rid of issues like popping on decel even with Auto Tune.


    Tmax with Auto Tune is $800+ retail, High $600's discounted

    Sert is about $350ish discounted, at a local tuner here $250 for the dyno tune on the SERT and he's good and takes several hours, $600.

    Even it was $350 the price is about the same.

    The advantage to the Tmax is it does it all for you but you can still have it tweaked on a dyno for more power.
    hotroadking, Feb 5, 2008
    #9
  11. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Don't agree that the Sert and TM are about the same. I've had both.
    Seen 10 more HP pulled out of a bike with a TM over a Power Commander on a Dyno machine.
    I had to pay 460.00 for the sert. Paid 350.00 for a dyno tune on the sert that was a crap tune after 3 hours. Remember this, there are not a lot of tuners that can tune correctly with the sert. The program is too big. The sert is a RACE program. Seems not to work as well on the street.
    When you make new changes to the bike it means you have more dyno time with the sert. So there goes more money out the door.
    The THundermax with Auto Tune does not require a dyno Tune. YOu would have to have a advanced dyno tuner to even do one.
    It required that you drive the bike over 500 miles and vary yer speed for a tune. Got a lot better fuel milage with the TM than the sert also.
    The kind of exaust you have on yer bike has a lot to do with how the TM tunes, how the base map will take over and let the program to to work. The pipes you have on yer bike has a lot more to do with how it runs than you can imagine. Always remember Reverb. When you git yer pipes are they for sound ? Looks? or performance. All pipes do not even tune well with the sert.
    When you change the piped you have a low restriction exaust system. You are going to git some decimal pop. If you do not like exaust pop, leave yer bike stock. My stock bike had decimal pop when I would gear down.. :rant:
    cardboard, Feb 6, 2008
    #10
  12. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well a lot of tuners would disagree with you on the Tmax and SERT

    BTW the only reason the SERT is Race Only is for EPA reasons, HD cannot sell legally nor can anyone else anything that modifies the fuel/air and timing on a motor or they get fined if it's for street use. So they sell it for Off Road, Racing only. What you do with it is your problem (It's just lawyer talk)

    HD sells thousands of SERTS every month, and there are more tuners getting educated on them. The program is actually made by the same company that makes these for GM/Delphi tuning on cars that the aftermarket uses to tweak power out of Cobalts, Corvettes, Goats etc.

    There are a lot of settings and things that needs a good tuner to tweak to get it really on the spot, you can't just make 10 runs and plug a number or two.

    Carl's Speed Shop's son Doug does a great job tuning these, he's taken the time to learn the programs including PCiii units and it does take several hours but when they are done you will know why.

    The Tmax is good at what it does, provide a decent tune on the bike and reduces the need for you to get the bike dyno tuned. If you have a mild build the TmaxAuto Tune will do just about everything you need.

    However it doesn't eliminate the fact that a good tuner can tweak the maps and settings and get more power out of the Tmax than the Tmax on it's own. Yes you can pop it on and ride away and it works fine but that's not the complete ability of the unit.

    Decimal pop ???? Do you mean deceleration popping?

    That can be tuned out and it's not always the pipes but the combination of parts as well as the tuning. On the one I'm talking about it's a Tmax on an 08 Softail Standard with Reinharts, the base map wasn't even close so Zippers had to send over a new map they made up to get the base started correctly.

    Also we talked with them and the Tmax won't correct automatically what we need and Zippers gave us the manual fix, see what I'm talking about? It can do a great job but you may have to tweak a few things to get everything spot on.


    As far as $460 for Sert that was the Retail price but it's lower now, market is under $400. There are a few that are good with the SERT but it will increase as HD no longer makes carb bikes and lots of people are buying the SERT, even John Golden started taking classes on it last year when he and I were talking at Daytona.
    hotroadking, Feb 6, 2008
    #11
  13. hddoc94565

    hddoc94565 New Member

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    All these mods sound great ...thats why we buy H-D in the first place. But a word of caution. Any Modifcations done to your M/c that are not H-D approved for street use will void the warranty on your bike. If it does not have the "Green Light" icon in the catalog You will Be SOL.

    Your installing dealer may cover repairs but if your out in "Spyder Breath California" or on the road the dealer there will jack you for full price cash out of your pocket for any repairs just because they can and you pay better than H-D warranty does.
    hddoc94565, Feb 6, 2008
    #12
  14. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm Know somebody that went to MMI and spent 2 yrs in performance with HD. Done spent time talkin to them and had my bike tuned.
    Also got a friend that's a motorcycle computer freak. He tuned a sert on a bike. And we put a TM on a bike and ran it so it could adjust. The TM ran the same lines without any tuning that a Tuned Sert did. He also run a PCIII and it showed 10 hp less than either the TM or the Sert. The TM Also gave me better fuel milage. The TM can reat the AFR's and adjust itself, the sert can not. It is set to the table it was programmed to runon. The program in the sert is like 800 squares in the table. the TM is like 1894 squared in the table.
    Done a lot of homework on this with a lot of people that know their computers on bikes.
    Glad there are so many choices. Seen a lot of people make a lot of different choices in the last few years and spend a lot of money on different types of comptuer products for their bikes. But the TM and the Daytona Twin Tec has beat all of them for cost and performance of tuning a computer..
    I've had the sert. I make changes ofter. It required a lot of dyno time. Dyno time cost money. Not going to keep going to a Tuner to git the bike tuned over and over. I did not like the sert. Will not buy another one. If it comes to bottom line I will git a Pegasus before I git another sert.
    Anybody gettin caught in the pocket of HD warranty needs to leave their bike stock. How many people do you know that leaves their bike stock ?
    Everybody wants to change it.
    After talkin to he dealer and hearing them continue to talk about everything I tried to do voided my warranty, I got upset at it being held over my head, I tried to kill myself just so I could void the warranty. I got the person over the dealership to come and talk to me and ask them is this how they conduct business by trying to throw a scare tactic into everybody about if they don't do this it would void their warranty. Seems like some other folks heard me and they come over and got in the conversation too. Because we bought a HD doesn't mean were going to be held hostage by a warranty.
    I will not be pushed into the wall over a HD Warranty. If HD wants to preach everything about their warranty so they can sell more HD products I'm not for it. Why do you think there are so many indy shops. HD products are EPA products and not made for performance. The EPA is gonna kill HD in the long run if some changes are not made.
    Sorry but I'm old school. Been riding since 63.
    You ain't holding a warranty over my head.

    Hd has had problems with their bikes since they were made. People like S&S fixed a lot of the problems for HD. Everytime HD tried to fix one thing they made something else weak. Why didn't HD made a crank that wouldn't turn. Why didn't HD make better case bearings. Why did HD put our Cam plates with cam chains that are eating cam shoes up.
    Don't git me wrong I like HD but just because its HD doesn't make it bullet proof. HD is out to make their share holders happy. NOt the folks that buy their bikes.
    cardboard, Feb 7, 2008
    #13
  15. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    HD isn't scaring people in to voided warranty issue, it's uneducated and unscrupulous dealers.

    Any modification made doesn't void the warranty simply because it's installed, the Manuf has to prove that any failure was directly related to the part installed.

    The FTC act that covers this is Magnusson Moss, which was enacted to stop warranty abuse. Years ago you had to buy the manuf product (HD Oil for example) to maintain the warranty (as you were told by the same dealer employees trying to scare you into buying the oil from them). Magnusson Moss says if a Manuf requires it's parts and materials to maintain the warranty they have to give them to you for free. So if someone tells you that you need to run HD360 or Syn3 or you void your warranty ask them to put that in writing so you can give it to your attorney, and ask them for the free oil and filter. Watch the dumb look they give you, then tell them they just violated a federal law.

    If you put in an Andrews gear drive cam, and your electronics go out, you still have a warranty on the electronics, no way a cam caused that.

    Now if you put in a cam and the camplate, bearings and all go south you would have to defend that the cam didn't cause it or defective work on the part of the installer.

    So the only thing they could void with an aftermarket part is damage directly the result of the part you added.

    As to dyno tuning SERT vs TMAX I don' t think I'm getting my point across.

    The Tmax will tune well, but it can be tweaked by a repuatable knowledgeable tuner, just as a SERT can be tweaked.

    Your friend with computer knowledge, is he a dyno operater with years of experience in tuning Harley Davidson performance software and motors? If not he may not be the best tuner.

    I use the DTT Twin Scan, we record data set the VE tables and AFR tables and get the bike pretty darn close. However only on a Dyno can one really repeat over and over the same runs and be able to manipulate the software to create a good power curve, same with PCiii and all the other tuner software.

    Yes you can drop on A tmax and I do think it's a great tool, but it also can be tuned.
    hotroadking, Feb 7, 2008
    #14
  16. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Yep ! My buddy back home has a dyno, and he is a builder, and he races HD bikes. It took him a few years to git back into racing cause he broke his neck. Not he got a stint put in and it set him back again. But he is a very good dyno man.
    I'm well aware of advanced sofeware for the TM. They won't just let anybody have it.

    Dollar for dollar you can't beat a true tuner like the TM
    cardboard, Feb 8, 2008
    #15

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