MSF Observations

I passed my riding/road test with the state and am licensed, but I decided to take the MSF safety course to maybe learn something I didn't know or to increase my knowledge about riding in general. Overall, I am not impressed with the instruction I have received thus far. I am the type of person that listens, ingests and analyzes what I am being told. I check for consistency of thought and congruency of thought/action from whom I am listening to. Some points that I have observed:

1. There are actions taught in a finite-not-open-for discussion manner...such as: "Never ever look down..always look straight ahead...if you look down you will fall over." The only time you use neutral is when you are parked and the engine is turned off-always stay in gear at a stop or traffic light using no brakes."

2. The cones for the "sudden stop" exercise negate the possibility of actually encountering a "real world" experience of having to stop suddenly..IE: you are not allowed to "anticipate" the stop and downshift (MAJOR points given for the anticipation), but seeing the cones sets you up for the anticipation. As Bertil Roos (an ex Formula one driver) once told me, regarding the cones used at a popular driving school, "there are no cones in real life." In a real life situation, you don't have cones and if something happens it happens fast and you can't really anticipate it (sometimes you can).

3. It is given and assumed that the people taking the BRC have never been on a bike before. The bike I was given was very much unlike the bike I ride and, as with every new thing in life that we come across, takes an adjustment period. Yet, the riders are supposed to "master" the skills in a few practice runs. The one instructor was very good at negative reinforcement and chided the riders when they didn't have a certain skillset mastered. The other "coach" was very nice and used positive reinforcement and positive feedback to his students.

These are my observations thus far and the final class is this Saturday..I will see how well I do on the skills portion.

Any thoughts, comments or personal observations?

your opinion is very insightful as a participant, although if you give the average joe a choice then it will be tested, and who will be to blame? the instruction is (usually no matter what the course)absolute and to find the experience and time will then prove otherwise, until then the novice must be protected by a finite-not-open for discussion attitude, as for the cones we all know that there won't be cones setting where there will be a need for a sudden stop but there wouldn't be much for students if they used a bus to teach evasive manuvers would there as for the negative VS positive reinforcement, there is usually a need for both because its rare to hear a neutral instructor
and remember usually its the nice guy that will finish last. that said the one calling the student a stupid sob with his head up his ahole, may not like the instructor, and rest assured they won't have dinner together, but the student will most likely retain the information, put out by him than the nice guy instructor JMO

I agree with you IronHorse..except that studies have shown that negative reinforcement almost always has consequences...not the kind whereby one retains what is heard. Most people shut down their processes and "tune out" when presented with that type of instruction. Negative reinforcement WITH positive, such as seen in military training does build confidence and learning, but BOTH need to be present. As a psychologist, I tend to see things from a different perspective. You do make valid points about the absolute learning process, though.

One thing that gets me is the fact that the a-hole coach HATES Harley guys...doesn't like "loud" motorcycles and prefers quite cycles like a BMW. I cannot even ride my wheels to the class. To play devil's advocate, I told him that right now my Harley is my only means of transportation (a lie) since my car is in the shop....he told me that I would have to get a ride or take a taxi to the course since he does not want to hear a "loud" cycle roaring into the class (not actually used IN the class, but transportation to and from). He also said that loud cycles are dangerous and cause accidents. I would love to know the source material for that comment.

I just love it when my rights are trampled upon...

The instructor has no business telling you what you can and can't ride to the class - unless you don't have a motorcycle endorsement, which you do. Who offers the class you're taking - state or private? Either way, once you get through the class, write a letter and tell them. That guy should be fired, regardless of his instruction ability.

OK, that being said...

I couldn't agree more about the quick stop and the anticipation. The skill you are learning is to use both brakes to stop and to downshift to first so that if you then need to get the Hell out of Dodge before you get hit from behind, you're in the position to do that. It's almost impossible not to anticipate. Unfortunately you seem to have a real pr&*k for an instructor, so there probably won't be a lot of breaks in the testing. Bright side is that you already have your endorsement, so your future in riding doesn't hinge on it.

As far as the commands on what to do and what not to do, I'm with ironhorse in that the direction like that is to pound it in to you, so that when someone isn't standing over you, some of it will stick. I think the problem here is the fact that your instructor is a jerk, and rather than happily taking in what you're learning, you want to tell him to go pound sand. With the looking down/falling down, there are a couple of exercises where that's true: exercise 6 where you have the wicked offset cone weave, and exercise 10 in the u-turn box. You will totally screw up if you look down. Out in the real world will you fall down? No.

The basic rider course is designed for new riders. They have an experienced rider course that you can take after a year or a thousand miles, which goes over a lot of the same exercises but on your own bike. An intelligent instructor with more than two classes of experience knows that getting the bike into neutral in the first couple of exercises is a huge pain in the butt - and it isn't going to matter by exercise three. However, keep in mind that it is the coach's job to, well, coach you. A huge part of the job is closely watching every run and telling you where you can improve. A good coach will continue to provide guidance to the riders who need it and will realize when someone just has a bad run. A lot of it comes down to personality.

I'm sorry the class is sucking for you. If everyone isn't having fun and learning a lot, I consider it a failure on the instructor's part. I wouldn't expect a refund, but I wouldn't accept your experience without voicing your opinion to the organization you paid your money to. It's one thing to say that the guy was a jerk and you didn't have fun, but telling you that you can't ride your bike to class is crossing the line.

Oh yeah, and stopping quickly in a curve and the turn signal exercise - don't expect to be overjoyed with those. Stopping quickly in a curve is another one that is impossible to do while you're anticipating it. Never mind the fact that the instructors will tell you to cross the line if you have to. Why in the world would you want to randomly cross the line without a second thought? It's crazy. I think it also gives you the idea that you can't brake in a curve under any circumstances. Just play along with it.

The turn signal exercise is just hard to do in the short distance you have to do it in. Now, add the fact that you ride a Harley with turn signals on both sides, and you're gonna screw it up. You'll honk the horn, turn on the other signal rather than canceling, look when you should have signaled, whatever. It's a stupid exercise.

Neither one of those are on the test though.

Thanks Hot01 for the input! The turn signal one I am not sure we are going to do considering the turn signals have been removed. I also ride a Vespa and the turn signal configuration is the same on the course bike...but I will probably screw it up since I ride the HD more. It all comes down to muscle memory.

Yeah, he is way out of line with preventing me from bringing my wheels because it is a Harley and louder than the average bear. He won't tolerate brand bashing from the students, but he has his way of voicing his opinion on "loud" motorcycles (AKA Harleys). I even took the CycleShacks off and put the stock street legal pipes on anticipating I might have problems. If the bike is street legal...then I should be able to ride it wherever I desire.

I respect the guy because he has over 40 years of riding experience, but I deal with narcissistic guys like him all day and really don't like to deal with them on my days off. I thought this class was going to be FUN! I can't wait until a hearing impaired friend of mine takes the class next week...I will have to be there to hear the comments from him.

BTW, it is a state sponsored class and is free. Thanks again for your input-it is greatly appreciated!

If it's the MSF course, you'll do it, with or without the turn signals. We have very few on the bikes here in Colorado (they're the first thing to go when the bike is dropped), but we do it anyway.

There are exercises in the MSF course where the instructor randomly chooses a stop point later on in the course. Those are much more realistic and the students do much better.

FLHT, probably having the instructor giving the signal for straightening and stopping in the curve makes it better. In the MSF course, what happens is that students anticipate, just as in stopping at the cones, and they just give a little wiggle of the handlebars that's supposed to be them going into the curve and then straightening the handlebars and stopping. I've heard instructors say that people always fall in that exercise, but I've never seen it. I hate it when they say it to the students, because then the students just do the wiggle and learn nothing. I also don't like the fact that they say it's OK to cross the center line without any instruction given like, make sure there isn't a semi coming in the other direction. MSF is always looking for ways to make the program better, so maybe they'll pick that up from Oregon.

It's part of the job to "coach" people out of the class, but generally we don't have to. They are usually very nervous, and as we go through the classroom and talk about all the things you need to look out for and give examples, they take it all in. When they get to a tough point in the class, they'll say thanks, but no thanks, and leave.

There are some that are borderline. I had one last weekend that wasn't real bright and was a worry, but she pulled it out at the end. There was a woman who only came because a friend was doing it. She'd never thought twice about riding. She was, by far, the best student in the class. Aced everything the first time.

Then you have some guys that think they know everything because they've already been riding for a while. They have an excuse for everything. The thing is, we know who's got it and who doesn't. If you screw up one time, it's OK. We know it was a bad run. But the people who keep doing it their own way because they think they know better, :gah:. Sure, maybe it's worked for them, but they've chosen to take the class for some reason, so why not be a good example for the rest of the class? If your skills are so great, then you can do it our way for the class and then go back and do it however you want.

Hot01,

Yeah, I see the guys in the class who are constantly blipping the throttle like they are riding a sport bike (flooding the engine and choking the person behind them with fuel rich exhaust fumes)...they seem to know it all (one guy couldn't even fasten his helmet). I went with an open mind and a willingness to learn whatever was presented in front of me. I have spent over 12 years in undergraduate, graduate and post graduate school, so I am constantly in "sponge mode."

Trying to be objective and analyzing this, I have come to the conclusion that what really got to me was the fact that he (the coach) is so myopic towards men and women who ride "loud" motorcycles (implying Harleys), that I became bias towards his approach. I am a rebel and always have been and for someone to tell me that I cannot ride here or there-really pisses me off. Furthermore, having some apriori knowledge and experience about learning and seeing how this guy teaches, makes me cringe. Obviously, he has taught many many students and his methodology probably works so I should not be as critical.

I have been using what I have learned in class to break some bad habits and so far the class has been informational and I talked to the other guys who ride Harleys (we exchanged contact info) and we are going to ride enmass to the class on Saturday...and we will probably all fail...

I had to laugh when I read what you wrote: "some are borderline..." in my line of work a borderline is a personality disorder...BPD for short...:roflmao:

Thanks again!

I too would have to push the envolope if the coach is as narrow minded as you state and in a large mass just to make sure i got under his skin, it would also test his professional capability to remain unbias and reasonable against his personal desire too "get even" because if he has a brain in his noggen then he will know your doing it for spite.
as for your "apriori kowledge and experiance" I will come to the defense of the instructor for alot of hard working folks out here did not have the luxury or the ability, and some not intellect, or desire to spend 30 yrs of their life getting enough education to be a boastfull head shrink, don't get me wrong someone has to anaylize the crazy people and you get to do it..your choice.
but just guessing this guy probably never had a chance to attend a college to learn the proper methodology to teach he most likely "fell" into the job with a desire to help the novice rider and I'm sure he deals with a lot of different walks of life just as you do, the different styles of dealing with them amounts to that 12 yrs of schooling you have and that hes trying to teach people to ride, and your trying to find out why

I don't think it has to do with the amount of education someone has or doesn't have. In that case, it's personality. It sounds to me like this is where he can wield his power. Not a shrink, but there are people out there who like to have that control. It's too bad when it takes something that can be a lot of fun AND a great learning experience and makes it a chore. Luck of the draw.

Going through the training course was one of the hardest things I've ever done. That includes my MBA. It includes taking my small child and leaving a psycho ex, moving a thousand miles away and starting over from scratch. I've never worried about failing. I've always had a lot of confidence as a student. It's something I'm good at. The instructor prep course was the first time I ever thought I might not pass. The funny thing is that I was the best student in the class - not subjective - my scores were the highest. They totally beat you down. Nothing is fun or a joke. No breaks are given. Every thing they can find to pick at, they do. I understand it. You have people's lives in your hands. Many people don't make it through. Perhaps this guy felt that he learned a lot that way and it worked. Tough love I guess. It works, but why make it miserable when you can be effective and have fun.

exactly I work with and under folks that have education ranging from nothing for education and some with a ged to 8+ yrs college some know how to teach/train and some only know how to read from a predeterminded itenerary the education level is very much irrelivent my point being is im guessin in defense of the guy as i am not there, and I am also only guessing that he didn't spend 12 yrs in school to teach moto safety,so he learned to teach by shooting from the hip I am only guessing that he deals with all walks of life, egotistical, agressive, stupid, smart, educated uneducated, racist, and some that probably have more experiance than himself they are not paying to be analized (spl the way i wanted) they are paying for riding instructions and the way he teaches may be the most effective for that classes mentality, the next he might be a nice guy, or maybe his ol lady rode off on a loud harley with a guy that looks like him, and he has a personal vendeta, or while i am elaborating here in all fairness maybe the problem is phylsphyguy maybe he is constantly analizing the instructor getting on his last nerve we only know one side, but then again I've been wrong before, they guy could be a highly educated phd holding professor, or an insecure ***** I'm only guessing though