N65C vs N72E - 88 twin cam

All - looking for a little guidance - I have a 2000 Softail, running SE air filter, Andrews N21 cams, and slip ons.

Current jetting is 46 slow, 190 main, N65C needle shimmed up .038" - gas mileage is good - getting around 46mpg at 70. However, have to give it a lot of throttle to wake it up it seems, and the plugs look a little lean.

I have an N72E needle as well, which is richer towards the end of the needle more or less. Anyone tried this needle, or have any other suggestions? I was thinking of going to a 195 main as well. Had to pull the exhaust recently, and noticed the exhaust valves are a grayish white as well. Oil temp is around 235 at 70 mph on an 80 degree day .... Just cautious about being too lean - will eventually get a dyno tune but can't right now (time and money lol)

Thoughts, suggestions ... all help is appreciated!

Is this what are talking about the valves looking like? If so, that is pretty normal, those valves get pretty hot. As you are describing, sounds like the bike likes what you have going on

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this I what I think and my opinion . the main thing to do is get the main correct to the point that you don't have to shim the needle . its okay to shim the needle when the app calls for it . but for the current build I don't find it to be the case . 195 main 45 slow and a stock needle should be perfect to start with your main is on the small side for the added flow from the cams

JohnnyBiker - the stem and valveguides look similar to your pic - a whitish-gray color. I haven't pulled the heads, so not sure what they look like in the combustion chamber.

BaggerPaul - before I added the cams, I had a 45 slow, 185 main, the N65C needle with no shims - bike ran OK, but was lean - the plugs looked brand new with NO color at all - bone white. When I bought the bike, it had the N65C needle, a .040 shim, 45 slow, 180 main, and the accelerator pump was disabled. I rebuilt the carb, took out the shim, added a 185 main, and it seemed a little lean. Thought I may need a bit more fuel with the cams so upped the jetting to 46 slow, 190 main, and re-shimmed the needle. Plugs have a touch of color, but just barely. I have now put the 195 in, and haven't touched anything else yet. Will the richer main help at the lower speeds? My head is spinning from all of the articles I have read LOL

when you say a lot of throttle to wake it up what is the rpm range? could it be before the cam/ engine combo is happy or a fuel mixture issue?

Bambidee - I am wondering about the rooms myself - no tach as yet. I have a sneaking suspicion I am short shifting .... But at 60-70 I should be well in the cams - they are rated to make good power from1700 to 4800 rpms ....

At what speeds are you talking about and in what gear?

JB - I need more saddle time to give definitel answers - and a tach LOL. It seems to be mid-range - opening it up it goes well. I may have to just pony up the $$$ to have an AFR check done on a dyno. Best I can tell it is in the mid-throttle, lower RPM range of the cams; since these are lower RPM cams designed for torque, that is why I am concerned / curious. Fuel mileage is OK - getting almost the same as my Dad is on a 2007 Road Glide (bone stock) with a 96 inch motor and 6 speed ... 41mpg today running at 70 with a nasty headwind most ofmthe ride. Phil temp is stabe around 225 with ambient being around 88 or so.

They(Andrews 21's) do make good smooth power,but won't give arm stretching power at 60-70....I think your Softie has 3.37 gearing,so at 60-70 MPH you're approximately in the 2600(60)-3200(70) RPM range in 5th...

If it's 3.15 gearing it's approx 2500(60) 2900(70)

Here's a list of the needles to show their taper...

http://bike-talk.com/forum/tech-tips/14983-cv-needle-information.html

Lucifer - thanks for the needle information - I have been looking at that and trying to decide is I should try the N72e needle or maybe the N72s. Can you tell me what part of the needle that we are on at cruise, say around 60-70? FWIW, I am assuming I have 3.15 gears; looking into a tach so I will know soon ....

I think that you are on the right track of thinking here. Get an AFR analysis and then go from there. If you are going to go that far, then maybe you want to consider to have the person tune and rejet accordingly? There are two ways to jet, for power, and then for fuel economy. Those N21 cams aren't that much better than stock, get a nice tune done for that build and leave it. JMO though. I hope that you get it worked out.

My guess is you'd be around the D3-D4(bottom of chart) section of the needle....maybe one of the other guys can say for sure...

Get the main correct then move to slow jet then needle for main comming in correct ! Your pissin in the wind if not playing with needles on time is a band aid for to small of a jet. Or to heavy of a slide spring .!

Baggerpaul - gotcha. I am going to do exactly that - starting with a baseline of the 195 main, 45 slow and N65c needle with no shims. This is similar to the setup Joe Minton used on the 95" build with 21N cams in American Bagger. May be tricky tuning the main, only because the Springer doesn't like 100 mph LOL. Once the main is dialed in I will work the rest. I do need to wait a week as I have a new exhaust on the way - Supertrapp 2-1 ... More Torque - MUST HAVE TORQUE!!!

You want torque?? Check out my build thread. I just posted my results from the dyno tuning session. Now that is torque!!!!!

JohnnyBiker - ya gotta put a link LOL - this iPad sucks for surfing!!!

It is here on the forum. 88-98CI Upgrade. Near the last page you will see it.

DAYUMMM!!! That is a sh*tload of torque!!! Nice work!!!

An 88 CI is a great putting along engine but if you want power, the 88 has to go. JMO you wasted a lot of money on that exhaust. I made that power on a True Dual. JMO