Oil Related Engine Failure

I asked the question on another forum" Has anyone ever heard of someone having an oil related engine failure??"

This is a reply I got.

I have been using Castrols hard drive oil for 3 years now with no problemos. But, to answer your question about using the wrong oil and failure. Yes, if you go to synthetic with too many miles on your bike, it will clean all the oil deposits from your cylinder walls and bearings,and cause massive failure to engine components. The motor in my bike only has about 12k miles on it,becuase of this happening to me 3 years ago. I changed to synthetic at 25k on the odometer,and the oil cleaned my engine to the point where the oil was coal black ater 250 miles. Changed it thinking something else was wrong, but after another 300 or o miles it turned solid black again. After it LOCKED up, we looked inside the engine cases and cylinder walls. You could eat lunch off the parts they were so clean. Synthetic oils have a cleaning agent in them that works very well. But not on an engine with a lot of miles on it. This is being said not in theory ,but from experience of having one lock up on me .
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Any thoughts as to what really happened...

I find it real hard to believe that an engine failure would be caused by too clean an engine. Even harder from the details in the story passed to you - if the guy had already changed the oil again after 250 miles (a couple hours riding at least) he would have mitigated that "gunk chunk" problem greatly. Oil is in the system to remove heat and provide lubrication - in that order - and not to clump up into significant chunks.

I have experienced the symptoms of oil leakage after switching to synth on old engines - but in both cases the engines just leaked oil a bit from places/gaskets that weren't leaking before.

Back to the story passed to ya - too much of a crap-factor to me. If the bike had sat outside for 15 years or so, maybe....but probably not. That bike had to have another, real problem

I agree with both AFNurse & Red Rider 100%. I've used conventional & synthetic oils & still use both - this one for this application, that one for that application, etc. & changing from one to another in any given application can bring about results you didn't expect.

For example, after changing primary fluid in my '95 Sportster from conventional H-D SportTrans to synthetic Red Line, I noticed a few drips I'd not seen before. Did the synthetic cause the leak? No. The SAE grade for both oils is the same & they both contain the additive for the clutch, but the synthetic flows much better & it will find any little imperfection in a gasket, a tiny crack in the case, etc. & I should have already replaced the old gasket. Sooner or later the SportTrans would have started dripping too.

In 40+ years of messing around with bikes/cars/trucks & going to a racetrack when I can I've never had an oil-related failure using conventional engine oils (the right one for the application) & I was a real "hard sell" on synthetic, but one of the things that sold me on Red Line is after a year of racing with a rebuilt engine (started up with conventional H-D branded 20W50 then switched once the rings seated) we pulled the top end off & the piston tops, combustion chambers in the heads, etc. were spotless - no carbon deposits @ all.

2 key points to add - that engine runs on leaded racing gasoline & the Red Line I used in that application has no detergent additives. They assume the oil in a race engine will get changed more often & additives can burn away quick, but needless to say I was impressed. Not trying to be a salesman for Red Line & I stand to gain nothing if you choose that brand, but the engine parts & the micrometer tell me what I want to know.

Oils made for street bike engines do have detergent additives, but the "additive package" is different from conventional to synthetic. Nonetheless, a switch from one to the other will not cause a mechanical failure - but it may very well make problems with particular parts show up a lot quicker. Reminds me of the "bearing skate" claims - synthetic is so slippery that roller bearings won't roll, they'll just slide - even a few chemical engineers believed that. But not one person on planet earth has ever been able to show bearings where that actually happened.

Can't blame a mechanical failure on the oil used (unless it was the wrong weight, as in 5W30 instead of SAE 50), have to blame it on the mechanical problem which already existed, whether you knew about it or not.

I agree 100% with all replies too. Changing to syn from conventional oil can result in seeps weeps and leaks because it does a better job of cleaning,then finding imperfections in gaskets and seals. But not engine failure.
I was thinking along the lines like you mentioned Art, that it was a 10w-30,or 5w-30 instead of a 50 weight. My first thoughts were that he had a bad float valve and fuel washed down the cylinder walls and got into the bottom end.
This really got my curiosity going because I have never heard of it happening, so I thought I'd throw it out here to to get some other opinions.:devil:

Oh yeah, the wrong weight oil will sure do it & so will too much fuel going into the engine. In both cases the oil gets wiped off the cylinder walls & I can show you some very expensive cylinders & pistons where it happened.

Tell you a story 'bout the thin oil deal - I put a new engine project together, we started it with H-D branded 20W50 conventional, heat-cycled, got the rings seated & we're good to go. Drain that out & put my old favorite conventional SAE 50 Valvoline Racing Oil in. Gotta go - see ya @ the track. Due to logistics problems I wasn't able to go to the dyno we used on the way, but (stupid me) I thought my instructions were clear.

Yeah - one knucklehead who believed the "thin oil = HP" theory put 5W30 Mobil I in my engine for dyno runs. I didn't find out about it until I got to the track & only the Lord kept me from strangling him. Well, there's a Red Line trailer over there, it's over 120 miles each way to go get Valvoline Racing Oil, I've heard lots of good things about Red Line from others, so I'll get some here - yep, Red Line man has plenty of straight-weight.

Got 2 records using it, but when I got the bike back here & pulled the top end off the engine, it looked like a drunk had taken a rat-tail file to the cylinder walls. Wasn't from the Red Line, it was from the dyno pulls on the 5W30 - I could see that right off. Thankfully that guy lives 8 hours away or I'd strangle him now !!! So do it all over again - new cylinders, pistons, rings. And I made it VERY clear that nobody puts oil in this engine other than me.

The next year was the 1st one that I ran only Red Line & was so impressed with the results. Numerous records, a Championship & an engine with no measurable wear, clean enough to put back together with just a new set of gaskets & run again. Back then we had 4 team bikes, Red Line sponsored us (no $$$ but free oil) & all 4 bikes set records. Got SAE 50, 60 & I even got some 70 weight for very hot conditions.

And although I can't remember which NASCAR Chevy team it was @ Charlotte which blew the engines in all 3 cars on their qualifying runs several years ago, but I do remember that I about broke my ribs laughing! -0- weight Mobil I in all 3 cars - again, the "thin oil = HP" theory. Larry McReynolds, TV commentator, but former crew chief for Davey Allison & Dale Earnhardt, Sr., got the biggest kick sticking his microphone in the crew chief's faces - "What were you thinking?" If you try something new, you do it in one car - if it works, fine, if it doesn't, you only lose one engine. And we knew that trick didn't work 20 years ago :roflmao::roflmao: :roflmao:

syn over dino I like my syn oil (withholding brand name to keep the arguments down) but have run dino over half my life (age withheld to avoid arguments:roflmao: ) I still use dino in my leakers cause they leak less, use syn in my newer vehicals, the bearing skate is a fact anymore, thats one of the reasons for friction modifiers. as for the globs or gunk can be cause by the change of dino to syn and that once in a great while coagulation of the oils will plug off a line a port or screen and starve the engine of oil, the manufature of syns usually have some oil flush formula to clean the engine as a stage between dino and syn, I personnaly have never used some and never had a problem but have opened up an engine (diesel) and along with others concluded that the cam was trashed because of the coagulation of oils. It would be my guess that there was an oops involved with the failure more than the oil theory but i wasn't there.

:gah: 3 NASCAR engines, Holy Smokes!!!! A few bucks trashed there!! I wonder why he's a "former" Crew Chief:roflmao: :roflmao: Art, Free oil is free oil, I'd slap on a sticker, hell I'd even wear the Tshirt. Glad you didn't strangle the guy,we'd all miss the knowledge you provide on here
Ironhorse, I think you may have hit what happened to him.
25,000 miles is low mileage IMO, but I guess it's possible that the syn loosened a fossil deposit and it plugged a line or passage,altho you wouldn't think there would be much build up considering the bike would only have been on it's 6th or 7th oil change.
An "oops" and BS luck= one blown engine. That has happened before.

Thanks fellas, great replies so far, any more ideas??.:devil:

Oil

I use Castrol 10-40 in my 1200 Goldwing trike, I change oil & filter every 3000 miles, and never have had a problem, To me oil is still chep, so why go to a Synthetic oil ?? Oh and I use a Sears Die Hard Lawn mower Battery in my Trike, and change it out every two years, I put the old one in one of my three ridding lawn mowers, That way I never have a Battery problem on the Road. I hope every one has a Good New Year....

Larry McReynolds had retired from racing after having been one of the winningest crew chiefs ever - that's one reason why it was so funny. 3 young guys on the same team make the same mistake & here comes Larry Mac with a microphone & a TV crew to ask, "What were you thinking?" :roflmao:

It cost the team more than 3 engines too - got fined $40,000 for oiling down the track during qualifying & while all 3 cars had been fast enough in practice to compete for the pole position, or @ least a top 10 spot, they all had to start the race @ the back of the field. Them's the rules - if you change the engine between qualifying & race day, to the back you go.

You can gunk an engine up pretty quick, especially if it's set to run too rich, which about 40 zillion bikes are. Wash oil off the cylinder walls, contaminate the oil, all kinds of nasty things can happen. But unless the oil used is way wrong for the application, a mechanical failure can't be blamed on the oil itself.

It's very possible the oil(s) didn't have the right "additive package" & wiped out cam lobes is not all that uncommon of a problem. It'd take me a while to look up the changes between API ratings, but what it boils down to is that as emissions standards have gotten tighter, anti-wear additives have been removed from engine oils & the reason is the best ones, when used in a vehicle which has a catalytic converter, will clog up the conveter as some oil burns off during the normal combustion process.

For example, Valvoline now makes 2 versions of SAE 50 Racing Oil, which was never intended for use in stock passenger cars & the original does have the anti-wear agents. The newer version does not have those additives & the one you want for a Harley says not street legal on the label. Last I saw, the original version comes in a black jug & the newer version in a gray or silver jug.

There's nothing really "illegal" about using the older version, just that it has the anti-wear additives that will clog up a cat converter - but also the same additives you need to reduce cam wear, so if the bike/car, etc. doesn't have a cat converter on it, no worries.

The same is also true with many oils designed for diesel engines, but only diesel engines. You can use a quality diesel oil in a H-D engine, but not in a newer passenger car. And you definitely do not want to put oil formulated for a new car in a H-D or diesel engine.

your absolutly posatootly right AL but you sure can blame a mechanical failure on the lack of oil IE: plugged screen or passage

Definitely. H-D engines don't have much oil pressure but they don't need it - they need oil FLOW. Clog something up & there's not enough pressure to break whatever it is loose & cutting off the flow @ that point will make something fail. Just a little bit of dirt in a hydraulic lifter will really mess things up.

So you never found out. Bet it wasn't a Oil related problem as long as the right API oil was used.

I kinda gave up...last thing I got from him was the syn oil caused a piece of carbon to break free and plugged an oil passage, so he blamed it on the syn oil.... not on heavy carbon deposits.

With the new gas being so cheap it causes carbon to build up all around the rings and forcing them out. On Outboard engines they have said for years to use TCW3 oil which is high detergent. And to use 89 Octaine cause the 91-93 octainne had too big a chance of having acohol in it.

Still don't believe it was oil related with the amount of miles on the bike.