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S&S Camshaft...

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Tech Talk' started by Tommyc, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    One lobe has a large and a small nick on it.
    Does it need to be replaced? The bike is running fine with it the way it is but service manual says to replace it.
    Any comments as to what I should do from our experienced guys?
    What causes a hardened camshaft surface to get nick'd?

    If I decide to go with a higher lift cam, how do I go about measuring the valve to piston clearance?
    How do I measure the valve to valve clearence?
    Thanks guys!
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2011
  2. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    is it a solid lifter cam or hydro cam
  3. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Depends, define large, and then figure out,

    What caused the nick....

    If the cam lobe is coming apart that's one thing
    it could also be from a lifter bouncing off the cam
    and hammering it back as you over rev and float
    the valves and the spring tries to return everything
    to normal.
  4. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    solid lifters. about 3/8" long gash off the side of 1 lobe. I think it's just from wear. I'm gonna check the tappet roller tonight and see if it's mared as well.
    I'm gonna replace the cam as opposed to wait till the engine blows up.
  5. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    check valve spring pressure . make sure the oil you use has zinc in it . most oil had zink removed because of epa standards . and we need zink in our motors as well in high performance car engines as well .if valve springs are worn or valve lash is to wide you will beat the crap out of a cam lobe. p.s. valvoline vr1 racing oil will have zinc in it . for cam break in on solid lifter motors i use lucas tb zinc additive.
  6. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    cam and lifters should be replaced as a set roller or flat tappet as well !!! if the wear is off to one side of the lobe check cam shaft end play . roller lifter tend to walk the cam forward in the cam chest . make sure end play is correct!
  7. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    Does it come in 70 weight? I only use 70 wt.
  8. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    I run 6o in my twin cam . I will be honest with you and say i dont know if they have seventy weight . check the vavoline web site for vr1 racing oil and see . run your 70 weight stop by the shop and ill give you cam assembly additive for your oil that has zinc . and you can add it in . lots of engine builders in my area do just that .
  9. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    Thanks for the info. Do you know any of our local Harley mechanics?
    What does the zinc do?
    I'm guessing it's slightly abrasive and helps the parts wear/mate together.
  10. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    wrong zinc and phosphorus are metal to metal anti wear additives . extrme pressure lubricant additives that were drop down in oils causeing more cam shaft faluires for engine builders. we saw it alot on flat tappet cams and also solid rollercams .spring pressure on solid rollers are alot more than hydro roller cams.
  11. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    Experts say that the additives in API blends will no longer cut it in a racing or performance engine. There is no denying that API oils for the most part work very well in late model engines where there are roller cams and much less friction than in high powered racing engines, which are in many cases, good old pushrod V8s.

    According to Lake Speed, Jr. of Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil, one of the important differences between racing oil and API oil is the limited amount of phosphorous in API blends. The EPA limits the amount of phosphorous and zinc, specifically it’s the phosphorous, not the zinc that is limited. Phosphorous is a component of Zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate (ZDDP, or ZDP) is a family of zinc salts of dithio organophosphates. And they easily dissolve in mineral and synthetic oils that are used as lubricants.

    Zinc phosphate is mainly for anti-wear. The zinc and phosphate go hand and hand. So when you limit phosphate you limit zinc as well.
  12. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    I know harleys are not hot rods but our motors need zinc to survive heat and anti wear agents aid in that.
  13. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    I just run straight 70 weight in my shovelheads like all the old H-D mechanics tell me too.
    I don't get concerned with additives, synthetics, etc.
    It seems to me everyone has their own opinions about what's better.
  14. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    I understand that as well. Zinc was in all our oils as the epa standards were brought in these additives were . Drop down of all our oils . I dont run sythetic at all .and im not telling you to add something that was not standard in oils prior to 1996 . Your shovel oil back in the day had zinc additive in it and know it has less then .8 percent in it . I would hate to see you put new cam and lifter set in there and have it fail .
  15. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    Thanks for the info Paul.
    I do most my own work and I go with what my mechanic tells me since he built and warantied my motor. I haven't had any problems with it at all.
    He said to replace the cam before it blows. It's worn and starting to lose the hardened surface. He said to inspect the tappets and cam bearing and bushing also.
    The motor is apart 'cause i'm puttin on new STD heads. Real nice ported and flowed heads. I had to see what the cam's lift is that's when I saw the bad cam lobe.
  16. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    I hear ya brother i just did not want you thinking i was pushing any thing on you bro just sharing info that has helped me over time and not having to replace cams for customers under warr and it was the oil companys fault not mine . And crane sent me a tsb and shed light on what was going on . Because they were having to replace cams for us it was a mess brother just a mess
  17. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    Thanks again.
  18. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    TC, I know you have a builders recommendation and if he is doing a warranty
    and you have to follow it but seems (and I know we've discussed this in the past)
    but 70Wt is thick stuff.

    If you do use it then you need to be sure to use one that is designed
    for Vtwin air cooled engines or meets the HD API spec that contains
    additives for air cooled engines. Lots of guys get away with running
    Mobil1 car oil to save $3 a qt on 4 qts of oil vs the Vtwin M1, I"m not risking
    my $6000 engine over $12 to me it's simply absurd when you weigh
    the risk/reward.

    A choice to Save Enough money for lunch (twice a year) at Mcdonalds vs protecting
    your investment..

    Enough of that. My guess is a couple of things may have happened

    1) metal fatigue or failure - odd - slim SNS makes good stuff but Shiphappens.
    2) over rev - lifter got pushed hard came off the cam lobe and banged back down (you know your riding style, you like big inch engines, you like tq, you like hauling ass then you know if this is possible)
    3) improper adjustment on pushrods, spring breaking down in lifter, spring on head having issues (ie mechanical)

    If it were me I'd dump the solid lifter cam and lifters and go to an evo conversion roller cam and lifters, they are easier on the valve train, you can get bigger lift cams and it's typically quieter than the solids and over time, solids wear and have to be adjusted so it eliminates the issue,

    Yeah we all know, it's shovel, they were made that way, however, there have been advances in technology that allow you to look stock but take advantage of better parts for better reliability so why not...

    And I wouldn't think you'd need more than 60Wt Syn from Amsoil would be necessary, why don't ya give ol John a call and ask him about it,
  19. Tommyc

    Tommyc Active Member

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    HRK, thanks for the good info, however, the Evo lifter/pushrod conversion requires engine case machine work and the parts alone are about $1200. The lifters are at a different angle than that of the shovels. I checked into that. I ain't spending $1500+/- bucks on something that's not broke. Why is the cam failing? I dunno exactly why but I'm sure it's because of something normal, (ie: everything you said) adjustment, riding stlye, over revvvvvvvvving,
    metal fatigue.
    The 70wt oil I use is for Vtwins, from a cycle shop about $7 per quart. I don't use cheap stuff. Got too much money invested to go that route. 70 wt cycle oil when hot is like water, it's not as think as some people might think. The older motors had larger tolerences than the new motors, therefore the thicker oil, plus shovel motors are about 30 years old, they're worn more and the south florida weather is VERY HOT!, therefore the 70 wt oil to account for extreme heat thinning the oil and the larger tolerences found in the shovels.
    Ask any old shovelhead mechanic in south florida and they will tell you to run 70 wt or "she'll blow up on ya".
    Thanks for your reccomendations.
  20. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    one other thing, on straight weight oil.

    The reason for a multi viscosity oil is to promote
    flow when the oil isn't warm to all those places
    that need it most.

    Now when you fire up a 20W-60 oil it's at 20 and moving
    fast and easily into the engine, with 70 it's going to be
    harder to get it to all the places you want it.

    It's possible the 70 isn't getting to the cam lobes
    fast enough and you are wearing them a little every
    time you start it up after it's sat over night or long enough
    to drain down...

    You might look to see if there is a multi viscosity oil to
    give you start up protection and then temp protection
    as the engine heats up..

    thats expensive for the conversion...

    You could sell it to JB, he's still looking for a new bike (LOL)

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