Valves Rattling

I need a second opinion, I have A 2005 XL1200C Sportster. When I accelerate you can here the valve's rattling like its running hot, and or it has low octane gas in it. But theres no way it was hot and I had fresh gas in it. The plugs look good and the carburetor is adjusted right.
I think it's carbon build up in the heads. Would appreciate some feed back.

That's not valves, it's "pinging" & may very well be caused by carbon build-up. Although the sound is the same, the 2 major causes of "pinging" are not - one being "detonation" which can be caused by different things including a mis-match between the piston top & combustion chamber, igntion timing advanced too far & poor gasoline. But the far more common cause is "pre-ignition" - the mixture burning before the spark-plug even fires - which is also the cause of "dieseling" or "run-on" - engine tries to keep running after you shut it off.

The wrong heat-range plugs can cause that, but when you get carbon deposits building up on the piston tops, valves & combustion chamber, they'll get to glowing red-hot during the compression stroke & fire the mixture before the spark-plug. Won't do it cruising down the road @ part-throttle, but it will under acceleration.

Simple ways to fix that & it just involves taking the "ham-can" off & while the engine's running, fully warmed up, spray some carb-cleaner, auto trans fluid or even plain water down the carb throat with one hand, while running the throttle with the other, just enough to keep the engine from dying - don't rev the engine hard. If you've got a free-flowing exhaust, you'll probably see chunks of carbon come flying out & if you use ATF, you'll smoke up the neighborhood. But it does lubricate the top end & it's loaded with detergents. But again, carb-cleaner like spray "Gumout" works & so does water in a spray bottle - rinse out an old Windex bottle or something like that.

Once you've got the top end of the engine cleaned out, set about to find out why you had the carbon build-up problem to begin with - could be poor quality gasoline & could be engine oil that's not forumulated for your bike & I guarantee you that newer automotive oils are not. A typical multi-grade for a car will break down quick in a H-D engine & you will get carbon deposits. Could be as simple as a dirty air filter, but by far, the most common cause is the carb jetted too rich.

First of all thanks allot for the reply Art, I'm using Mobile one for V-twins W20-W50 in it and most of the time I use 93 octane gas. The filter was some what dirty I got that cleaned now. Can't adjusted the timing it's electronic and I well try the trans fluid in the carb in the morning. (Ive seen that done before.) What do you think about the Mobile One oil it's good stuff isn't it ? It's running and sounding like its hot, Like your in city traffic in the middle of August.

Thanks for the reply I appreciate it.

Although you may not need to, yes you can adjust the timing & Sportsters tend to come with it set a bit advanced from the factory. The procedure is in the factory service manual & if you don't have one, go get it - worth every penny.

Be interested to hear what you find running the ATF thru the carb trick - I use it too & if there's carbon build-up you'll find out about it. The exhaust will continue to smoke after you've stopped squirting ATF in, but not too bad & it will go away in a few minutes of riding, during which you may notice quite a difference from before.

A lot of people like Mobil but I sure don't & when I tried it, oil temps shot up - same roads & same conditions where the temps typically run 160-180 & never more than 200, I saw 230-250 & that I will not tolerate. Drained it out, went back with trusty ol' SAE 50 (straight-weight) Valvoline Racing Oil & the temps were right back to normal. The only synthetic I'll use is Red Line & I've had XLent results with it since I first tried it in 2001.

I spoke @ length with chemical engineers @ both Mobil & Red Line & their formulations are quite different, including the basestocks they start with. And although it carries a multi-grade rating it's really not - in other words, a typical 20W50 starts out being 20 weight for easier starting & additives are mixed in to make it act like a 50 weight hot - "nice theory" said the chemical engineer i worked for. Red Line 20W50 is actually 50 weight, but easily passes the cold-flow tests of a 20, so it can carry that designation.

Not trying to be a salesman for Red Line & I stand to gain nothing if you buy it (expensive), I'm just relating what I've learned. There are only 2 oils I'll use in a H-D engine, the trusty ol' Valvoline, now labeled not legal for street use 'cause the ZDDP anti-wear additive will mess up a catalytic converter, and Red Line, which is the only oil I'll use in a race engine.

Thanks again Art for the information, I do have the services manual for my bike first thing I bought for it. All it says about ignition timing is that it's non adjustable. would you please tell me how I can check it and were I can get that Valvoline oil I like to give it a try

H-D moved the Sportster's ignition module from the nosecone in the cam cover to under the seat starting with the '04 models so it wouldn't get so hot, but the "Hall sensor" pickup stayed inside the nosecone. While the module itself is not adjustable, loosening the screws holding the sensor plate & rotating it will change the timing. Double-check that in your service manual, but if I'm not mistaken, it's the same -04-'06 - the next change came in '07 with the fuel-injected models.

I wouldn't remove the cover & mess with the initial timing unless I knew everything else was right 1st, but over & over again the factory setting has been found to be a bit fast & the factory allows for a +/- 2 degree variance. Not normally enough to cause pinging in an otherwise properly tuned engine, but certainly possible & it sure wouldn't be the 1st time. The cover is riveted on & only H-D has the right rivets to put it back on, but nearly everyone goes back with machine screws so the cover can be easily removed/replaced again.

As to the oil, the SAE 50 Valvoline Racing Oil was never intended for street use in cars & has anti-wear additives that are very good for H-D engines, but not too long ago, they started making another formula without those additives so you can use it when there's a catalytic converter in the exhaust. And now that I think about it, your '05 model has a cat in one muffler (why not both?), but if you've changed to "Screamin' Eagle" or other slip-ons, there won't be a cat.

The "old" style oil is still sold & last I saw it's in a black jug, the newer in silver or gray, although they both say SAE 50 (they make a 60 too). The old type is much better for H-D engines & I've gotten it by the case @ Sam's Club or Wal-Mart to save a few bucks, but even the local NAPA store carries it, because there are so many Harleys in the area & that's been a popular choice for 40 years.

I USE REDLINE IN ALL MY AIR COOLED ENGINES

I use 20/50 in cooler weather here in wa.state and 20/60 while in az..

redline has been good to my harleys

My dyna is built :95" with 10.25/1 scrm' eagle pistons (used to be 10.5 wiesco) too much compression 215 static.
ported/flowed heads w/manley valves-springs
570 SS gear drive cams/delcron cam support plate
fueling oil pump/lifters** programable ignition
42mikuni/eagle air**** JAGG oil cooler w/manual control valve

NOW with all that done to it ...IT still shows very little wear(i've taken it down to see) and I feel it dependable enough to go anywhere....


In my dyna REDLINE 20w/50/60 for engine

MTL in the chaincase (original clutch) over 75000 mi. on it

SHOCKPROOF HEAVY in the tranny of which i converted to 6 speed....
I have YET to see any ANY metal on magnet!

I also don't make any thing by PUSHING REDLINE products..... JUST feel glad to share a wonderful product that is FULLY synthetic and works this well... I would not change to another oil...YET there are other oils that are good but I have no need to experment.....

I also have a 2006 sporty 1200 ROADSTER.... I use redline 20/50***60 in the engine

the chain case tranny gets harley's formila + as i have gone thru 4 stators and hd paid for ALL and the last one was out of warranty.....SWEET of them but ????? why 4 they don't know... If it goes again ???? they will fix!

HOPE you are able at least to use REDLINE 20/50 as I run in the HOT az temps with the sporty and no cooler added... bike has NEVER shown oil temps over 200*
signed....REDHEAD

Hey Art You doing OK ? Thanks again for the information, I haven't had a chance to get a wrench on my bike, and in no hurry it's like 19Degs out there now. But when I get to it Ill let you know how it turns out.
P.S. I just wanted to get as much infor. as I could before starting to work on it. Ive had alto Bikes in my life but this is my first Harley and love it get my heart betting every time I ride it. ( It Kicks ) and look up and thank god for the moment./

Thanks RedHead

If your gonna pay the extra money for synthetic oil you might check out Amsoil. The shop I go to researched Mobil 1, Harley Syn 3 and Amsoil. Amsoil came out on the top when tested at high temps that caused other oils to break down. Hope this helps.

Kevin

Yep, doing OK, thanks for asking. Have had power & internet outages though - heck, my cell phone wouldn't even work until about an hour ago. 4-8 inches of snow here in this area of N.C. is like 2 feet further north Going down to 15 degrees tonight too - must be that "global warming" deal :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Well, this place is a super source for info & if I'll be happy to tell you what I know that may be helpful to you. Your XL is different in many ways from other bikes you've owned, but it's very similar in other ways & if you can work on a Honda, etc. you can work on a Harley. Need some different tools & you DEFINITELY need the factory service manual, but in many ways a H-D is easier to work on because it's "old school" technology.