Vance & Hines exhaust problem - UPDATE AND THREADS MERGED

I recently had some V&H Long Shots installed on my 2002 Softail Heritage Harley with EFI. I'm hearing some sounds that I believe may be a problem with the pipes or installation. They were installed by a dealer. I already had the Stage 1 download on my bike when I had the baffles removed from the stock pipes, so i was told nothing else was needed to be performed other than the install. The sound is somewhat difficult to explain, but it sounds almost like a morse code sound of a rapid metallic type. Almost like a metal button rapidly tapping against metal. At low RPMs it is less noticeably, but when increasing the speed it gets much more apparent. Does this make any sense at all? It idles beautifully - love the "cam like" sound. Could there possibly be an exhaust leak or maybe a tuning issue? Any feedback on this would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Robert

Baffles and clamps

If you have the baffles in, start by checking them. Pull them out and check the area where the screw goes to hold them in. On a set of Hookers, I had a baffle that looked like there was a nut welded into the baffle and smoothed down. The weld broke and over 4 years the baffle vibrated so much that the hole ended up being the size of a 50 cent piece. Good thing was that the nut was still tight and it kept the baffle in. Although there wasn't any noise that I noticed, I found it when checking everything out before selling the bike. Took the baffle to a friend and had it all welded back together and smoothed. Look great and ready for another 4 years of use. Other than that check the exhaust flange nuts, clamps and other areas of the new exhaust and make sure they are all tight. This is a good thing to do with any new install. Go back after the first day of riding with the new parts and again a week later. Harley's tend to vibrate stuff loose if lock-tight wasn't used.

Does it sound like marbles in a can as you roll on the throttle? Does it vary with RPM and throttle position? Are getting lean pop as you decellerate?
If so, you need the new Ronco EFI fix O matic.
Seriously, if this is what you are hearing, you need to get something that allows you to adjust the EFI. The Power Commander, Race Tuner etc are all good units.

Actually, it varies with speed - mainly RPMs. If I'm cruising at around 60 and give it the gas, it makes the "metallic" sound until I back down. It's really hard to describe other than as it a jacket with a metal button was rapidly tapping against it. Sounds funky, I know. A V&H tech rep told me to check the clamps holding the heat shield on and also the slooted end of pipe that goes into engine.

Does it make the noise if you are sitting still varying the RPM? Does it make the noise only under load like acceleration? It could be loose or broken heat shields but you need to determine if it is a rattle or a pre-ignition ping.

It seems to make the noise when it's idling after it's just been started. After it's warmed up, it doesn't do it when idling. Revving it does make the noise noticeable.

I was told that the Stage 1 download done on an EFI for a baffled removed stock pipe was not the same as required for a any after market pipes (V&H). I would double check if you need to remap.

I appreciate the input from everyone. I'm going to re-check with V&H and the dealership to verify that the stage 1 download is or is not sufficient.
To redefine the problem - I beleive the sound to be more of a "pingish" or the sound that drops of water make going into hot oil is prob a better description. It is more evident when bike is started and is cold and when increasing rpms while riding. Anyone else recognize the ping / sizzle sound I described? Thanks again to all!

In the FAQ section of Vance & Hines website, they recommended getting the Fuelpak when their pipes are installed. Has anyone heard of this or are they pushing a sale for something that is nice to have but necessary?

Fuel Pac is not required and yes it is just a sales push. I'm not saying it's not a good thing, but you have to decide whether it's worth the extra $'s. If your pretty sure your going to keep the pipes you have on the bike then the added expense isn't worth it. The HD in my area charges $125 for the download and I know I am keeping my V&H BR's on so any cost of the Fuel Pac over $125 is wasted cash in my case. BUT if your one of those who switch pipes out frequently (and there are alot of ya) then the Fuel Pac will pay for itself over time. Just my 2 cents.

Is the download you're talking about the Stage 1 download or an specific one for the V&H's? I have the Stage 1 from when I had the baffles removed from the stock pipes.

Huh?

First, the Fuel Pack is used only with V&H pipes and a stock ECM at this time. V&H is working on more maps and configurations.

Secondly and more importantly, the Stage 1 download is NOT adjustable, does not have selections for aftermarket parts etc. With the added airflow over the now obsolete SE exhaust see ( http://biketalk.directparts.com/showthread.php?p=11961#post11961 ) the EFI will be as lean or leaner than stock. The Delphi EFI is an open loop system (no O2 Sensor except '06 Dyna's) and has no clue if it is rich or lean or correct.

Making the assumption that any EFI tuning device is a "sales push" without knowing how the EFI system functions and what it's limitations are is being unfair to the manufacturers that spend millions developing EFI management devices. That includes H-D hiring outside companies to produce the SERT.

I would be interested to know if you ever had Dyno'd the bike on a load cell with the sniffer and what A/F ratio is?

Update

ok - more problems have come up. The other day I looked at my pipes and found one of them yellowing and some chrome peeling off. Needless to say, this pretty much pissed me as they have only been on there since May. I contacted V&H and they asked to send them some digital pictures - which I did. They stated they do not warranty discoloration - which I'm aware off, but the chrome peeling off is a different story. The HD dealership asked me to bring the bike in to look at. NO ONE warranties against discoloration, but I'm feeling a little cheated here,as the dealership told me the Stage 1 download was all that was needed. V&H seems to be willing to work with me - based on the peeling chrome and I have funded that dealership well over $20k over the years. I'm hoping someone is step up to plate make this right. I'm not counting too much on it, but will have to wait and see.

Harleyhog,
There was another thread(http://biketalk.directparts.com/showthread.php?t=1205) a while ago where other people were talking about chroming problems with V&H pipes. I've had the same problem myself.

Let's hope they do the right thing and help you out.

Vance & Hines exhaust problem - UPDATE

I previously posted about a "pinging or popping" sound I was hearing from my new V&H Longshots I had installed. While I was researching this and asking around, one of my pipes - heatshield acutally - yellowed. The pipes were only on about a month and I had only put minimal miles on it. I also noticed a little chrome peeling off below the yellowing. Long story short - through the help of local HD dealership - V&H made an exception and warrantied the pipes - yes warrantied them - prob due to the chrome peeling off. They put the pipe on the dyno and it was running way too lean. They installed a HD fuel tuner and got my mixtures right. I actually gained 10 horses and about 7-8 lbs of torque. The pipes were currently on backorder so I took the bike home until they come in. I am still hearing the "popping sound" mainly when I go to take off or when cruising in 5th gear and go to speed up. I'm HOPING that the problem is in the pipes - maybe defective in some way or an unseen exhaust leak. Was reading another thread on here where someone else has the popping sound. My bike is EFI and like I mentioned has the fuel tuner and previous Stage 1 performed. So i guess, what I'm asking is this something I'm just going to have to live with or could it be something in the pipes????
Thanks again to all the previous replies on this.

Jus takin a shot here but have ya checked to make sure the electronic advance is workin right?,thats what I would check for in my point fired shovel if it was doing that, electronic ignitions can and do go bad, Might check it out.

keep the clean side up
Beau

It sounds like you're getting extra air from somewhere. When I was a beginner I discolored a good set of pipes by not tightening the bolt securing the exhaust to the heads properly, and I was getting popping and afterfiring like you are describing. Make sure the exhaust manifold gaskets are in place and check the tightening on the bolts.

Popping, snap, crackle pop and gold?

I merged these threads for two reasons. First, it really is a continuation of the first thread and second, being able to read the entire thread in one place it will be easier to follow....

The Delphi EFI is an open loop EFI system i.e. it has no way of knowing you have increased air flow and is still sending the same fuel to the injectors it was when you had SE exhaust.

The various Stage "X" flashes from H-D are non adjustable and are for SE components only. The now obsolete SE mufflers never flowed anywhere the same amount of air that aftermarket exhausts and slip on mufflers do. So, even if you flash a ECU to a Stage I after adding the Longshots, you were still lean. If you do not believe this, ask a dealer to bring up the "menu" and show you a selection if pipes etc.

The Delphi EFI has a Mass Air Pressure (MAP) sensor in the intake manifold. It senses the vacuum in the intake and prior to start, acts as a barometric sensor during the computer boot sequence. The Delphi EFI does have some capability to adjust the mixture based on readings from the MAP and the other sensors. This adjustment is very narrow and is more along the lines of compensating for an intake leak.

Okay, all of that aside and on to your exhaust. Are your Longshots the original or new Longshots HS? Easiest way to tell is that the original Longshots are two piece having a header and a "muffler" section. The new HS are all one piece and have slash cut at the end.

You say you have popping. rattling, pinging etc and now you have your chrome turning gold. You also say that your dealer installed a HD fuel tuner and corrected the AFR and picked up 10 HP.

This same dealer originally told you the Stage I was fine and no need to add a tuner of any type. Doesn't this seem odd to you?

There are several posts to this thread and many others that answer these questions and more.

The pinging, popping etc and the gold chrome all points to one thing. You mixture was too lean and you toasted your chrome! Chrome can only take so much heat and above that, changes color based on the temp, intensity and duration. When chrome turns gold, it is almost always due to high EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Basically, it will turn gold, darken and burn off. I have seen Thunder Headers with the chrome burned completely off. If chrome turns light blue then to dark blue over time, you are almost always too rich. The unburned fuel is still burning and while it is burning it is still at a lower EGT than if too lean. Remember, fuel acts as a coolant also.

I don't understand why you would blame V&H's chrome quality when you ran your bike way too lean and toasted the chrome. If anyone should take the heat, look toward the dealer that shot you the line of BS about the Stage I being the right choice for your configuration.

CD - Not Blaming for the Yellowing.....

..... I have an area of chrome peeling away from the yellow area. This is another issue that just so happens to be occuring at the same time. I actually comend V&H for stepping up and warranting the peeling chrome.

Back to the popping - I have talked with several bike owners and have been told that pipes/bike combos are just going to pop. I've dropped enough money on this whole scenario that if it's going to always be there - why flush any more $$$ without a certain outcome.