Help Wierd Dyno results

You wanted a 103" Stage 1 Kit....check out page 18 of their very own SE catalog...it has a chart right beside the parts to show your expected output

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Racing/CA_EN_SE_001_031.pdf

And that's bone stock everything else, even at 50/50 split $4500 for upgrades your 103 is still a wounded duck.

Here's the written description of the 103 kit, seems to use the stock 88" throttle body and injectors, also has a clutch diaphram spring, cam bearings and the air cleaner backing plate looks like a stock one
Tq curve climbs to a little over 90 and steady from 3500-4000

A. SCREAMIN’ EAGLE® STAGE I KIT FOR
EFI MODELS – 103 CUBIC INCHES*
Bring your Twin Cam 88 motorcycle up to the same displacement
and power output as the CVO Screamin’ Eagle®
models – a powerful 1690cc. This 50-state street legal
kit combines all the proven components of the Screamin’
Eagle models – the 4-3/8" stroker flywheel assembly, 3-7/8"
big bore cast pistons, 3-7/8" big bore cylinders, SE-253
camshafts, cylinder heads, air cleaner assembly and cover
insert and catalyst mufflers when required. Cam Spacer
Kit P/N 25938-00 is recommended. This kit contains an
assortment of 5 different spacers to achieve proper sprocket
alignment. Individual spacers can be purchased separately.
The highlighted Screamin’ Eagle 103 cylinder heads and
cast piston combination offers a 9:1 compression ratio for
easy starting. The cylinder heads also prominently feature
the “Screamin’ Eagle 103” script. Kit includes all required
gaskets (except primary cover) and hardware to complete
the installation. All models require ECM calibration* (priced
separately).
*Recalibration is required for proper installation, and will
allow engine to rev to 5500 RPM. See dealer for details.
Labor cost not included.
Fits ’06 EFI Touring models. Kit includes replacement catalyst
mufflers. Separate purchase of end caps is required.*
29877-06 Black. $2,995.95
29876-06 Silver. $2,995.95
Fits ’06 EFI FLSTF and FXSTD Softail® models with shotgun
exhaust. Kit includes replacement catalyst mufflers.*
29856-06 Black. $2,995.95

Thanks, I now have a email thread with the store manager. I know the service manager isn' t interested working this out. Last word was I told them I expected it to be a 103SE, I'll pay parts difference, they just redo the labor. Waiting to hear.

Latest word

I emailed the dealership manger, told them I would pay the difference in the parts prices and they should cover the labor to build a 103SE we can both be happy with.
I get an email back with pages from the SE performance parts catalog with dyno's and he tells me pick how I want it to look, they'll pay the labor, but not cover the parts.
So, I do a bit more research... I'm learning so much And it seems they simply didn't install the right parts for these heads. I therefore don't believe I'm, in any way, on the hook for that.

Here's what I know now.
I was sold 103+ heads I was interested in at a good discount. I probably could have been talked into MRC performance heads or standard Stage without much trouble but that didn’t happen. I than bought every part I was told should go with it. My research shows the 103+heads are supposed to be matched with the "Forged Stroker Pistons for the 103+ heads" part number 22516-04. This they didn’t catch and they installed standard piston and ring kit part 22421-03 that was to be installed with the “stock heads”.

Additionally, HD has a caution on the 103+ heads right in the catalog that says "SE Adjustable or Perfect Fit Pushrods are REQUIRED for installation". This they didn’t catch and installed “Quick Install Pushrod Kit” part 17997-99A not the "REQUIRED" pushrods.

When looking at the SE Pro parts dyno that leaves only 2 other differences. For the 103+ heads to perform as the chart shows in the catalog on page 10 HD recommends the SE257 CAM Kit which has a .569 lift vs. the .510 lift they installed. The other thing HD recommends is "Free Flowing" mufflers". This combination along with correct flywheel and other parts I bought should produce what they call the “103 CI Super High Output” results.

Latest Work 2

So, now I'm trying to figure out what I want to do. And appreciate your input.

I called a couple of Harley Dealers and they confirmed the pistons were wrong for the 103+ heads and that if they had built the engine they would replace the pistons for sure but would have to go over the full parts list to see other things. I didn’t know about the push rod “requirement” at that time but I’m guessing the input would be the same. I just need to decide which way to go and then make sure I’m paying only the difference in parts prices.

I feel at this point, if I deviate at all from stock HD parts I will not have an "apples to apples" comparison which is a situation I do not wish to be in. I'm gonig to hold them to published performance numbers their must be a baseline, their baseline is HD. So while if I were gonig this away from an HD dealer, in this situation I feel my only recourse is to stick with HD componenets.

So, I could say – “Complete the 103+ build”.. Question... Should I be concerned that the heads, pistons and cam are all specifically noted in the parts catalog as "For race application only"? I also must reconcile a personal preference. While I care about performance and resale value, I don't ride on a track, I ride daily on the road and like to listen to music and would also like being able to hear when I'm older. I’m not particularly interested in getting tickets for noise either. If I go this way, do you think it would be OK to dyno it without the slip-ons, save the program and retune it with the slip-ons I have? Or must the mufflers be replaced? If the dealer has any leg to stand on anything related to this whole nightmare it is I do want it to be street legal but if my interest in the 103+ heads was to impact that they should have told me. Thoughts?
Or..
I could say make it a Stage I. Does this make sense if the cams, heads and pistons have to be swapped out just like the 103+ heads for the same amount of money and I already have the 103+ heads? The numbers are respectable about 1/3 of the distance between where it is now and the Super High Output numbers.
If I do 103+ “Super High Output” with recommended parts, (if so, do the compression release?)

Here is a link to a graph showing as is and projected numbers.

Thoughts?

Dont worry about the parts saying , for race application only, that is the mocos way of covering there arse because the parts are not emissions legal, they are only legal for off road use, but everybody and there dog installs them on their scoots so as long as your state doesnt check for emissions on motorcycles you will be fine, and dont worry about the cycles putting emissions in the air, lawn mowers put more emissions into the air than motorcycles, Todd

With the money you already have into this motor in no way do you want to back step, Get the right cams for your style of riding, but build the motor to 103 and badass as possible,just cause the power is there doesn't mean you have to use it. Like you said resale value alone is 10x better as true 103 SE and I wouldn't give them a $ on any parts that are listed as recommended on a 103 build you have more than paid for a properly build motor!!

Results may vary

The dealer got the letter from my attorney and guess what? Well, they are now willing to rebuild the engine, replace the parts to spec including the cost of a set of free flow mufflers of my choice. One issue remains and that is they don't want to be held to producing the dyno results published by Harley Davidson for the enginer with the same parts. In fact they don't want to be held responsible for performance numbers at all.

Now, I get the "results may vary" disclaimer and would not expect them to exactly match. That said, I am not at all interested in giving them a 100% free pass regardless of dyno results. I understand an engine built in Denver, a mile high up, in summer will have a very different dyno result than the exact same engine built at sea level in Portland in the middle of winter.

Here is the quote from the Screaming Eagle catalog:

"Corrected torque and horsepower measured at the rear wheel on a chasis dynamometer. Your results may vary”

So, what is reasonable? I suppose the published numbers are supposed to be "representative" so the question is what level of variance should a reasonable person expect?

If the dealer has the capability to produce "corrected torque and power" then that means the calculation will take into account ambient temperature, air pressure, and humidity variances. Therefore, the dealer can NOT use those variables as an excuse if they have corrected for it. The only thing they can blame is dyno speed and torque measuring devices. However, if they claim to be an ISO Certified company, then even these measurements have to be within +/- 2% of accuracy. Ask for their dyno calibration sheets.

If your parts are all the same ( and I mean ALL the parts) as what HD uses for their claim on the advertised power then I would expect corrected torque to be within at least +/- 5 % of the advertised values. And that's giving them more wiggle room then they deserve.

If any part is different - then that gives the dealer the right to not have to claim anything! And I would not blame them.

That's my $0.02.
Good Luck.

Results may vary

Cool..

That is pretty much what I'm finding when I call around. I've talked to 2 dealers so far today. Both say it'll be darn close +-2% shouldn't be more than 5%. If it was more than 10% something is seriously wrong and they would figure it out. But.. They will not commit in writting to producing published results or even a percentage of the published results. It's all a "trust me" we'll take care of it and do the right thing. At this point my confidence is pretty low and I just don't feel a free pass is in order.

The plan at this point is to pick the chart and let them build it. I was going to do the 103+ cause those were the heads I hand bought. But since the bike was put together without the REQUIRED pushrods for the heads and other non-recommended parts I wonder if there is a possiblity they were damaged.

Anyway. It sounds like they'll do whatever just won't commit to a dyno and it will be whatever it will be. I think I'll have my attorney review the document they want me to sign (I haven't seen it yet) and have some type of reasonable language added to make sure I'm covered.

They want me to go away as badly as I want to be done with this so they are going to do this all with HD parts except the free flow mufflers. I'm thinking Bub 7?

yup what chuck said, and stick to your guns, also what city is this dealer so as we can bypass them for work and save our headaches.

Story Winding Down

Got my bike Thursday night… I now have the right pistons and the cam to match the 103CI super high output configuration in the SE book. It now has the 103+ Stroker piston kit, SE-257 Cam. I already had the matching big bore cylinders, a Big Sucker Air Cleaner/Breather and Reinhardt Cross Over II headers. We swapped out the SE slip-ons and for the Bub 7’s (sorry chucktx). I also added mechanical compression release, the high tensile cylinder stud kit and the high performance top end gasket kit.

I don't have a dyno yet but I have to say it is a completely different bike. Compared to where it was there is a huge difference. It will leap from 3K and it just wants to go… The guys I ride with are very impressed with the sound. I'll break it in before I take it in for a dyno (elsewhere).

I had to sign a paper saying I picked the parts and they admit no responsibility, in fact they disagree with the findings of my attorney. It provided for them to do what was needed including expected level of service but it specifically stated that they are doing the work to close the matter, no apologies (I'm sure an attorney drafted it). This is good, while the store manager was searching to figure out exactly what headers I had, the parts guy (who forgot to sell me the matching pistons) tells the store manager that it was definitely Reinhardt because (get this) he specifically remembered (here it comes) "you wanted performance".

I have owned several franchises and on the rare occasion there was a problem with a customer there were always a few words would come out of my mouth and “sorry” was there big time! I find it totally amazing that through the whole thing nobody apologized for anything, at all, ever. Not the smallest amount of empathy.

Not sure if it has anything to do with it but the Service Manager is gone, picture off the wall and references wiped from the web site. Maybe they’ll find someone who will use a bit more discretion dealing with customers.

Well, I got what I needed, my bike fixed, upgraded, running, sounding great and an education at a variety of levels regarding motorcycle performance. Knowing what I know now, there is no way this would get as far as it did.

Thanks much for all your help! This site provides a great service.

Oh.. BTW.. The city dealer is in.. Marysville, WA..

Glad to hear you finally got what you paid for,just too bad you had to go through what you did to get it. The lack of an apology just shows the total arrogance of some HD dealers...betcha don't hear them bragging about any "awards" any more.
Enjoy your new ride...keep the shiny side up!!

jwohlfer,

Thanks for the update. We where all pulling for good news here. From what I know the 103 kit is the best thing HD has right now. The cvo 110 kit isn't doing so well in the reliability department. The 103s are better for reliability.

Ifn I ever get a chance for a new bike, the 103 kit will be the first thing to order.

Good Luck and ride safe.