Power Commander question

I have 500 miles on my new 05 Road King Classic. After the first 5 miles I knew the stock pipes had to go! V&H Ovals are on order. I know I can have the local HD shop re-map the bike or I can install a power commander. I am looking for recommendations and any one who has installed the pc. HD Shops say don't do it ... but they are paid to say that, right?
Thanks, Mark

As of Yesterday....

Your question is right on time with my stop yesterday at the Illinois HD store in Berwyn (in Chicago).. I got a free 30 minute tutorial from the dyno tech Jim, who confessed to dynoing '1000's of bikes'. He used to work for S&S, so he is a really into this stuff. So, I think I heard 'the truth' yesterday when I aked basically your same question.

I have just ordered the PCIII to go along with a V&H Pro Pipe and a Ness Big Sucker. The PCIII has map especially for this set up. My question to the Dyno-guru Jim at the Illinois HD dealership was whether these PCIII maps are as optimal as one of his dyno sessions. The answer was basicaly 'yes', but he did say that every bike is different, and every rider has a different expectation. He told me that he could tune a PCIII to 'put the power right where you want it', indicating that some flexiblity exists in what could be considered 'the perfect tuning of an EFI and PCIII set up'.

I saw the results of some of his dyno work. He loaded three graphs simultaneously for me on the monitor: a stock set up, a standard PCIII map set up, and then his dyno tweaking of the standard dyno set up. There was a very noticable difference in the the PCIII curves compared to stock conditions. But, his dyno tweaking followed basically the same dyno curves with one big exception. He was able to tune away a low rpm dip in TQ, and his tweaking did improve the TQ over the entire midrange rpm. This sounded good to me, since I want lots of pulling power in the mid-range at highway speeds. So you see, 'user preference' has something to do with this.

The alternative to the PCIII is the HD Race Tuner (RT). The HD Race Tuner has one significant advantage over the PCIII. The Race Tuner can record real-time data from your bike. But only from your bike. Jim told me that once you use the Race Tuner, is becomes specific to that bike (barring others, and improving HD revenues obviously.) The RT can do more than the PCIII, and the RT can adapt to a wider variety of motor parameters. The bottom line though, is that the RT ends up tuning the EFI just like the PCIII. The tech can tune your EFI to the equipment you have and to your power requirements. The RT costs a lot more than the PCIII.

I opted to buy the PCIII because it was cheaper, becuase it can be tuned to my equipment combo, and because it can be fine-tuned on a dyno by a good dyno tech.

Another thing that I found out is that HD can 'download' a set of parameters that can raise the rev limit on the bike. As far as I heard yesterday, this 'download', or 're-flash' of the ECM is independent of the Race Tuner or the PCIII. The 'download' is apparently similar to a PCIII map, but the 'download' actaully changes the ECM (including rev limits) whereas the PCIII just 'lies' to the stock ECM about what is going on with the engine.

Whew.

Next Saturday, I am going to install the PCIII, the V&H Pro Pipe HS, and the Big Sucker. I expect a noticable performance difference as well as a huge increase in sound over the stock pipes. I will certainly be posting the saga of my upgrade here.

Yo, down the road...

Painter

Thanks!

Thanks for the detailed info Painter. I am feeling more confident in making the change. My package is the PCIII, Ness Big Sucker and V&H Ovals. I look forward to hearing your results .... and any problems you had on the install.

RK

DIY or Buy?

Are you going to install the pipes and PCIII yourself or are you going to pay someone else to do it?

I was in utter turmoil about whether to tackle this job myself of pay someone to do it. But, yeah, I won't learn a blessed thing unless I try it myself. So next Saturday morning is the day. Swapping pipes 'looks' easy enough. I don't have a big garage or one that is all that well stocked with stuff, so no way would I tear down a motor... . But wrenching some bolt on stuff, and plugging in some wires is within range.

Yo, down the road,

Painter

This forum won't permit certain four letter words. Nice idea for a public place! I inadvertently type a very mild epithet dam*, and the forum **** the whole word out. Sorry.

Mark, I installed a set of V&H Longshots on my 2003 Heritage Softail with the Screaming Eagle Stage 1 Filter bought the PC111 usb and installed it all myself with no problems and I'm no mechanic. I then installed the latest map for my configuration and noticed a dramatic decrease in gas mileage. While out at Sturgis this last week I had it dyno'd at a Power Commander Trailer and was running very rich after getting a specif map for my setup I ended up gaining 5 H.P. and 3 lbs. of torque {Max} after which I realized a great increase in mileage and believe it or not my bike runs great I could not believe it. Just thought you might like to know. Best of luck and ride safe.
Ron

Which Map?

Rooster:

Did you use the map for your new setup straight off the PCIII website (or disk)? I have had some concerns about whether these maps right off the web or that come on the disk with the PCIII are optimal. Your experience sounds like they may be very conservative on the rich side. Also, did you download and install the "Accelerator Pump" upgrade for the USB version of the PCIII? This feature sounds like a gas-waster to me, and I don't know if I should use it or not.

I found TWO possible maps on the PCIII website for my proposed setup of V&H Pro Pipe and Ness Big Sucker setup: M805-005 and M805-147. The last one is specifically for 2004 models, and it is NOT the same as the first one. I will use the M805-147 map for the 2004 model Heritage softail that I have. Right now, I get about 42 mph is stock condition, and I will be monitoring gas mileage to see what happens a fter I put on the new pipes.

I had a one-on-one session with a dyno tech last weekend, and he told me that the PCIII maps can be improved upon. Your HP and TQ improvements seem to be about half of what the tech thinks he can get from tweaking the PCIII maps, and about half of what I am hoping for.

Comments?

Yo, down the road,

Painter

The Stage I recalibration retails for $150. Even though there are several stateside HD dealers who discount parts, I don't know of any who will discount this item. They buy the software in a cartridge of six downloads.

Most dealers charge from $30 to $60 for the labor to install the recalibration. So, you're looking at $200, round figures.

The difference would be in the Rev limiter.
Think of it this way. The Stage I flash upgrades some timing and fuel curves and raises the RPM limit. When you choose the appropriate map for ANY stage ECM the PCIII alters the fuel and timing curves as needed at any RPM.
So even if you have an increase in fuel at 750 RPM with a Stage I map and the PCIII map needs to either increase or decrease the fuel it will.

The PCIII works independently from the ECM altering the timing and fuel curve on the fly. It is not usually effected by the Various stages as long as the map matches the Stage installed and the configuration of the bike.

I've recently learned one other valuable piece of info on another very good forum. The HD race tuner while being every bit as effective, and maybe even more tunable...can take up to 10 hours of dyno sessions to tune in while a standard PC III takes 2 hours. Thats a lot of labor money! I guess the PC III's are more user friendly. I personally don't have fuel injection so I haven't bothered to bone up as much as I would normally...but these conclusions came directly from HD mechs who claim to run the dynos every day.

Saving $$

Been out of town so a little behind on the topic ....

although I consider myself mechanically deficient I am planning to do the install myself. I agree with painter that the pipe install is certainly within my limited capabilities. The PC looks like a plug-and-play. Based on the other responses I am thinking I should program the best map and then take it to a dyno guy for tweeking. Still waiting on the V&H Ovals but everything else is here. Can't wait to get the sound and performance!!

Mark

Noticed in the new HD parts catalog that the EFI race tuner is not listed. Anyone know if this product is no longer available?

HogStuff:

As of last Saturday, the HD dealership in Berwyn (part of Chicago) was trying to sell me the Race Tuner. I didnt' see it in the '05 catalog either. I did see more chrome and other 'pretty stuff' in the new catalog. I hope Harley doesn't drift away from the nuts and bolts that make HD so tuff. Just read this forum on topics of performance demands to see what I mean about what bikers really want out of the machines. Having a 'show bike' is fine, but without TQ and HP behind it, you ain't got sh*t.

Yo, down the road,

Painter

Painter,

Although I share your sentiments about preferring a well performing, quality ride over shine and shimmer, I have to disagree about what average HD buyers really want. I have no figures to back me up, but I'll bet for every $1 spent at a HD dealership on performance parts, there are $50 spent on accessories and apparel.

HD has learned their marketing skills the hard way and I think they are right on with pushing the shiny stuff over the performance items. For every bike that's out riding 3 or 4 days a week, there are probably 10 or more that barely hit the road once a month. To many Harley owners, riding isn't nearly as important as owning and showing.

That being said though, I would guess that the exclusion of the race tuner in this years catalogue is probably just an oversight. HD quit including the performance packages for carbed bikes in the catalogue a couple of years ago and have been emphasizing the EFI parts lately, so I really don't think they would have purposely excluded the race tuner. But, who knows?

ffflhtcui:

I am certainly one of those who have spent $50 on appearance and $1 on performance! In fact, I have kept track of it all (being a CPA, it's my nature!). I have spent $1034 on chrome and accessories so far this summer for my stock bike. My girlfriend has spent about $500 on clothing, shoes, do-rags and jewelry! (I have my own assortment of do-rags to cover my bald head --ouch!)

What got to me was that missing $1 on performance! I couldn't hear my own bike with stock pipes while in the midst of my HOG Chapter run earlier this summer! I HAD to do something about it! This notion of upgrading my bike cascaded from LOUDER AND PROUDER to the more serious underlying theme of performance: TQ and HP. I want it all--appearance and performance. Also, the tech stuff is interesting to me, so I bought a book on internal combustion engine theory. Mix this all together, and I will not only have a 'show bike', but a 'muscle bike' to boot, and the savvy to explain it all.

I ride my bike mostly on the weekends (259 miles last weekend-- and probably as many this weekend with the new Pro Pipe installed). I rode it to work one day and scared the h*ll out of everybody. They had no idea... and then I showed them my tattoos.

I just love the wind in my face and wide open space....

Yo, down the road,

Painter

Power commander q.

I have an 03 V-Rod.I chose the PC111 for my tuning and it works well for the street riding I do.With a good tech on the dyno it doesn't take long at all.The RT is more precise and programs the ECM.(no lies).If I was going to tweak it to the max I would go with RT.If you choose an RT never let Batt.voltage go below 8.9 or your ECM will become a vegatable!PC111 is the best bang for the buck.I modded the stock pipes,Se filter and driiled 2 3 in.holes in the airbox and have 119.7 rw hp. 10.40s @ 128 mph.Not too bad when factory was 104 rw hp.Harley rates the hp at the crank.
I think that there is a separate catalog for S.E. performance because of the good ole EPA.



Elrod on the V-Rod