Pythons on A Softail-- Loud and Clear?

I want to put Python slip-on pipes and a Kuryakyn Hypercharger air box on my '04 FLSTCI. ALL advice is welcome.

So far: I can install the pipes with no worry. I am looking at the Power Commander 3 module with the right map to adjust the EFI, and then perhaps the Kurykyn Hypercharger box. I'm a little worried about the sound and I don't know what performance increase over stock conditions to expect.

I reject the 'standard' Harley high-flow mod with Screamin' Eagles as 'same-o'. I want something louder and prouder. Am I headed in the right direction?

BTW: check out my blog on BLOGGER. I am the 'Harley Biker Brain'.

Yo, down the road,
Painter55

Good advice and sound judgment collided yesterday to reveal my doubts about installing the Python pipes and Hypercharger. I read everything, called everybody, and compared the benefits of putting on these 'exotic' parts as compared to the standard Harley Stage 1 upgrade.

With some regrets for not getting my hands dirty and enjoying the glory of a DIY adventure (which can be a pure hell of aggrevation and frustration--I know this from experience) , I have elected to go with the straight up Harley stuff: Stage 1 with Screaming' Eagle slip-ons, high-flow air cleaner and the ECU download. I have already scheduled the work with my most trusted HD dealership.

"Exotic" aftermarket parts look cool, but I am not sold on thier real performance enhancements over the HD stuff. The Stage 1 set-up will get me and extra 10 hp and that's OK. For now at least!

Yo, down the road...

who ever is talking you out of what you wanted to do before tell them to mid there own bees wax. aftermarket parts work good if not better than hd parts. (HD still have regulations to follow) if you want to put SE pipes on you might as well keep the stock ones on. pytons are great pipes go with what you thought originally. I think if you are going to do something do it right the first time. You will save $$$$ in the long run

No one talked me out of my original plan. I changed my mind after considering the ramification of aftermarket products on my HD warranty and after considering that the SE stuff ain't so bad. The disconcerting problem was that I could not determine the actual performance improvements from my Python Pipe and HyperCharger idea without the extra step of running the set-up on a dyno (an added cost that I could use to buy chrome with!).

The '04 FLSTCI is my main squeeze bike, and I want to stick close to reality with it. I had more grandiose thought last night about a chopper kit where I can totally wild. In my dreams.

Yo, down the road....

Painter

Hey Painter55,

What happened to your "I want somthing Louder and Prouder" attitude?!?!

I've got an '03 FLSTCI and after debate and advice from various sources, I opted to go with V&H Bigshots, Ness Big Sucker and the PowerCommanderIII and I've been very satisfied.
I'm sure the H-D SE stuff is good, but I wanted to get components that I thought were better and at a better price. The PCIII also allows the option of making various program changes as I like without having to have the HD Dealer flash my ECM everytime I want to make a change.

As for the DIY adventure you mentioned, I think that's also an important aspect to consider. Getting in there and installing your own components is a great of getting to know your bike better and understanding how it all works together. I'd encourage you to do some of your own wrenching if you feel up to it (be sure to get the service manual, it's a GREAT tool).

As far as warranty issues with non-HD aftermarket parts, I didn't really see that as an issue. I was a bit concerned at first, but then I realized how many bikes there are out there with aftermarket components on them. I've never heard of a first hand story where a component from a reputable aftermarket company caused a problem and HD declined warranty. I imagine there are situations where warranty was declined, but if done properly with good quality components I decided that the risk was nil. Besides, I had more confidence in my ability to correctly install the components than some of the boneheads I've seen wrenching at the local HD shop.

As for the actual performance improvement: How will you be able to accuratey determine the actual improvements with SE stuff if you don't dyno it? I would think if you want to know the real improvement #'s you'd have to dyno it no matter what components you put on.

I installed the components listed above, mapped the PCIII with a map from their website and ran my bike for about 8 months and it ran fine. I then found a HD dealer that specializes in installing PC's and has a dyno in house. I wanted to have my bike tuned to it's optimum performance capability, so I took it in and had it dyno'd. And because I had the PCIII installed, the tech could easliy adjust fuel flow for any given RPM thereby improving HP and TQ through the full RPM range of the bike
I found that the stock '03 FLSTCI on the dyno showed 59.8 HP and 73.5 TQ.
My bike with the improvements showed 76.9 HP and 80.3 TQ.
I realize that the HD spec sheet on the website shows 85 lbs TQ, but what is shown on a sales brochure and what is actual rear wheel torque is not always the same. I feel more confident in actual side by side dyno comparisons.
Anyway, after the dyno session I could feel quite a noticable difference in power, I have better MPG and I better understand where my best power range is and can shift accordingly to make optimal use of available power.

I've been very happy with the results and the way the bike runs.

Good luck with whatever route you decide.

SISK


Any attempt to stretch fuel is guaranteed to increase headwind.

Just a couple of thoughts. No dealer can void a warranty unless H-D has authorized that dealer to do so which would be insane. You and everyone else should read about the consumer protection act! It was written to protect you from exactly these types of situation.
http://www.duramax.bizhosting.com/magnuson-moss-warranty.htm

The SE exhaust is made by V&H but is baffled more reducing flow and making them quieter which reduces HP over other aftermarket mufflers.

The SE aircleaner uses the exact same wire mesh guaze filter element and is in fact interchangeable with the Ness Big Sucker Stage I element. The Ness backing plate is a 1000% better design than the SE.

The Stage I flash is usually fine for H-D stuff but the second you add some real flow you will need some ability to adjust the fuel curve.

Depending on what exhaust you choose the standard Stage I i.e. get air in and air out usually nets 15-25% boost in power.

Oh, and if you believe H-D or any other manufacturers Dyno charts are gospel, I got a lot of land down in Florida you can buy cheap

Now I am vacillating.... the 'exotic' stuff or the standard HD SE stuff!?

Your comment raised one of my concerns that sways my opinion toward the Screamin' Eagle option: You installed the PCIII with a map from the web, and then had the set-up dyno'd later on. The dyno session improved the PCIII map. !!!Sproing!!! I was sincerely hoping to hear that the PCIII maps were spot-on! Maybe not? Even the PCIII website says that close-enough substitutions shouldn't make much difference. I called the PC help desk, and the guy was a somwhat cavalier in telling me which maps I could use with various set-up permutation I have in mind. Hmmmm.....

My idea of the SE improvement figures comes from the HD catalog hype, and the HD dealerSALESperson. Your actual dyno numbes are hot. Explain more about what improvements the dyno made over the straight PCIII map. The HD dealer where I bought my bike has a dyno, and I have until Tuesday to cancel my appointment for the SE installation!

Yo, down the road,,

Painter

I just read in Motor Trend last night that American manufacturers do not post power to the wheel. They show net power, which is the engine mounted on a dyno with all accessories and exhaust attached but no drive train. Gross hp is with no accessories attached.

I don't know if that rule applies to motorcycles or not, the article didn't say.

Vacillations

Mr. Paint,

The PCIII map I downloaded from the web did not match my components exactly, but I feel they were close enough and the bike ran very well.

One thing I didn't mention in my last post:
After I initially installed the PCIII and mapped it, my MPG jumped from 41.4 (pre-PCIII) to 45 mpg. (I've tracked my MPG closely and have confidence in my numbers)
Around 1000 miles, I took my bike into the HD Dealer for the 1K service ( I wanted to have them do the 1K service to make sure nothing was wrong) When I got the bike back, they didn't mention anything about the pipes, A/C or PCIII that I had installed myself, however...for some mysterious reason, my MPG dropped from 45 to an average of 35.4 !
I asked the dealer if they had done anything that would affect my MPG so drastically and they of course said "nope, we just changed the oil and did the 1k service". I couldn't figure out why such a dramatic drop in MPG. I didn't know if they had somehow modified / changed the program I had downloaded in the PCIII or what. Anyway, the poor MPG was the main reason I started looking for a dyno shop that specialized in PCIII's and HD's.
After the dyno tune, my MPG went back up and is now consistantly at 40.4 MPG. That is not as high as the 45 MPG when I initially installed the map myself, but I attribute that 5 MPG drop to the dyno guy trading more fuel for HP & TQ, and I can deal with 5 MPG less for the increased performance.

In summary, I think the PCIII map from the web was fine. The only mystery is why did my MPG drop so drastically after the 1K service from my local HD dealer?!? Now that it has been dialed in by a professional, I'm quite satisfied, actually, I now have a hard time keeping it within the speed limit (or at least 20 MPH close) and it's hard resisting the urge to leave my buddies in the dust everytime we leave a stoplight (after awhile they don't want to ride with you ).

As far as your question "Explain more about what improvements the dyno made over the straight PCIII map.": I didn't have a dyno reading for the straight PCIII map from the web, so I can't give an accurate comparison between the PCIII web map and the PCIII custom map. However, the dyno guy printed a HP/TQ graph of my bike after the custom mapping and a graph of a stock FLSTCI that he had done as a baseline. The major difference is that the TQ for my bike now stays very flat and consistant (which is good) throughout the RPM range, while the stock bike starts losing TQ @ 3500 and it continues to taper down as RPMs increase. The HP graph shows my bike continuing to climb in HP as the RPM's increase, while the stock bike climbs until about 3500 RPM then just levels off through the rest of the RPM range.

ffflhtcui is right about the way mfg.'s post their HP numbers. Often times they will show a SHP (shaft horsepower) that is taken from the crank shaft. This is fine for comparison purposes if all other comparisons are also SHP, but it is not truly representitve of what you get where the rubber meets the road. Thus, having your bike dyno'd is more accurate for determining your actual output than taking the numbers from the mfg.'s brochure.

The HD dealer that did my PCIII dyno setup is Pamona Valley HD in Calif. (They're not the same dealer that did my 1K service by the way).
Give them a call and talk to their dyno guy (I don't have the number, but you should be able to find it on the HD website or just search PVHD on the web ((of course you know this already)) and pick his brain. He was very helpful in explaining the TQ/HP/RPM relation to me and feel very confident in his ability to correctly dyno a bike. He specializes in HD's and PC's, so maybe he can help you make a better informed decision and prevent future vacillations.

Stick with your "Louder and Prouder" philsosphy!
BTW, have you copyrighted that? If not, I'm going to hijack it for my own use

SISK - Louder & Prouder

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. - Mark Twain

"Louder and Prouder" copyright by Painter55

"Louder and Prouder" comes from my poetic side. It's a Painter55 original.

Now down to business:

This thread has been excellent in helping me decide what the hell to do. My FLSTCI is still all stock for pipes and breather. I can't hear my own bike in the midst of my HOG Chapter runs. Embarrassing. But I needed time to sort out the options (my excuse). Then I heard the Pythons calling...

I am not worried any more about the HD warranty issue. Good.

I have more confidence in the PCIII maps for my intended combo. I think the ability to tune the EFI is an advantage, so the PCIII is worth the trouble.

I understand better the benefits of the Dyno. BTW: I am in Chicago, and I use the Lakeshore and Berwyn HD stores mostly. The Lakeshore store has a new Dyno, and I get 10% off stuff there as my HOG Chapter membership benefit. I need to recover from the cash outlay this upgrade will take first, then I think I will run my Black Beast (nom de bike) on the Dyno for assurance.

I think I will look harder at the V&H Straightshots instead of the Pythons. The HyperCharger I first considered is a little too complex to do something simple, and that sounds like trouble down the road. So, the big Sucker sounds good and it's a little cheaper than the SE.

I am a CPA, so I have done the math, too. Go to the HD dealer for SE Stage 1: ~$750. Go with V&H Straightshots and Big Sucker and PCIII: ~$780. A toss up, but the 'exotic' stuff is: LOUDER AND PROUDER

Yo, down the road,

Painter

PCIII Install Concern

I appreciate the advice about having an experienced dyno operator at the helm. I will ask more questions before consenting to the service. I don't know why I 'trust' the HD shops so much?

Regarding the installation of the PCIII: did you have to go through the "Password Learning" routine? I read my shop manual this morning, and it seems to mean that if you unplug the ECM then you have to use either a "Digital Technican" or the manual "Password Learning" routine to get the bike to crank up again (since unplugging sets off the security features?). Could you address this for me? Other than this concern, I will rip into it with no worry.

I never considered running the PCIII with a Stock Map. You say you noticed a performance difference? This resurrects my concern about the efficiency of the downloadable maps. Say more about this....

Yo, down the road,

Painter

I will soon find out!

"A picture is worth a 1000 words". Also: "One 'doing' is worth a million 'tellings' ".

I asked for some good advise and opinion about my original plan to install a set of Pythons pipes and a HyperCharger airbox on my '04 FLSTCI, and that is exactly what I got. Since I haven't actually done any of this before, it was easy to come up with a million questions. Now, I am in the game! I ordered up my parts today, and by next weekend I will have my own war story to tell. I will have 'expreience' (which I will be happy to share here).

I listened to all the advice here, then I called the DIRECT PARTS tech line today. The gentleman I talked to (C.D. himself I believe) was very patient, thorough, and obviously knowledgeable about my product options. He steered me through my choices, and I finally opted for the V&H Pro Pipe HS, The Ness Big Sucker, The PCIII, and some gaskets. . Next, I called the Order Line, and Tish was most gracious and very friendly in taking my order over the phone and the internet. My stuff will be here in Chicago next week. Direct Parts has their act together. Very good experience with them, and GREAT prices.

I don't expect any serious difficulties with installing the pipes or the breather. The PCIII spooks me a little bit, but I have enough info to think I won't be sorry for the choice.

2:1 pipes like the Pro Pipe is a bit racy for such a stodgy looking bike like a Heritage, but I am more interested in performance and sound. It is easy to get off track on a bike's theme and styling. I think I am taking a risk in compromising the style of this bike with 2:1 pipes. But what the hell... the bike will be a standout in any case. I stuck to my guns with Louder and Prouder after all.

Yo, down the road,


Painter

I can't wait to read your report on how the installation went. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will have more problems installing the pipes than you will the PC, and I hope you don't have any there either.

Good luck, and let us know out it goes.

Indeed, I will tell you how it goes.