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Today is the Day

Discussion in 'Pull up a chair and sit for a spell' started by JohnnyBiker, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. FLHTbiker

    FLHTbiker Moderator Staff Member

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    And you could loose power.
  2. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    I leaned way out when I added the +4 key so I had to increase the main. The post is giving credit pretty much "solely" on the jet increase and not the fact that the ccp was increased as why I made the power that it did. That is how I read and understand it.....

    yes, too much fuel can be bad, it drowns out. I know this because we first put in a 205 main jet. We lost power. Then from there we went to a 200. The results is what you all see.

    Back to the original question. Did the key really do anything or not? Was it more the jetting, or the key??
  3. badinfluence63

    badinfluence63 Well-Known Member

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    Foul plugs.

    It would seem to reason that going with bigger jets is as a consequence of a bigger CI , freer breathing motor or exhaust change (and sometimes and increase or decrease in elevation) and to accomadate the increased need for more gas as a consequence of making the motor demand more gas? Either because of an exhaust change, cam..something.

    If you add more gas without a specific cause/reason of a change to the motors needs your motor won't just burn it because.
  4. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you are driving at. In my case there was a significant enough change to require the added fuel. I have not a fouled a plug so too much gas isn't an issue. Bike runs harder as in that it does have noticeable power change. Because of the key or the jet?
  5. badinfluence63

    badinfluence63 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what "the key" is?

  6. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    The key is an offset anyway that installed. It advances cam timing by 4*.

    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
  7. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    Offset keyway

    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
  8. cowboy

    cowboy Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks & sounds like its a combo of both key & jet
  9. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    OK so basically I am gonna figure y'all understand what a camshaft is/does, and simply say it's the timer in the engine that determines when the valvetrain is gonna open/close, for how long, and how far the valves will open.

    In the image below you have what would be an overhead cam pushing directly on a valve, however the concept for a vtwin is the same, different method of moving the valves but same basic events. Notice as the camshaft rotates the cam lobes move the valves, as it moves further up the ramp (lift) you can see as the lobe rotates it goes from the back (zero lift) to the ramp and it begins to open the valve, pushes the valve open farther as it turns (lift) and then back down a ramp to close. Once the opening timing event starts, duration or time of the lift occurs

    These are the events that Timing duration and lift encompass.

    [​IMG]

    Timing

    The relationship between the rotation of the camshaft and the rotation of the crankshaft is of critical importance. Since the valves control the flow of the air/fuel mixture intake and exhaust gases, they must be opened and closed at the appropriate time during the stroke of the piston.

    For this reason, the camshaft is connected to the crankshaft either directly, via a gear mechanism, or indirectly via a belt or chain called a timing belt or timing chain.

    In some designs the camshaft also drives the distributor and the oil and fuel pumps. Some vehicles may have the power steering pump driven by the camshaft. With some early fuel injection systems, cams on the camshaft would operate the fuel injectors.

    In a two-stroke engine that uses a camshaft, each valve is opened once for each rotation of the crankshaft; in these engines, the camshaft rotates at the same speed as the crankshaft. In a four-stroke engine, the valves are opened only half as often; thus, two full rotations of the crankshaft occur for each rotation of the camshaft.

    The timing of the camshaft can be advanced to produce better low RPM torque, or retarded for better high RPM power. Either of these moves the overall power produced by the engine down or up the RPM scale respectively. The amount of change is very little (usually < 5 deg), and affects valve to piston clearances.


    So basically JB changed the timing of the events on his camshafts AS THEY RELATE to the timing of the crankshaft in relationship to when the piston is at a specific position.

    Doing this allows the engine to have more compression (not the 10.5 to 1 you read about) but to create more cylinder pressure. More pressure means more power, it's kind of like taking a few thousands off the heads to tighten up the quench (space) and allow more higher pressure. However this way is done not by changing the shape and space but when the event occurs in that same space.

    JB wish I had thought to have you check compression on each cyl prior to and after the +4 key install. You should do that now so you know what PSI each cyl has at this point.

    In any event doing this creates more TQ, it's not expensive, it's like putting in new cams with different timing but the same life and helps with lower to mid range power.

    Click Here to see an animated Twin Cam cutaway

    Now in the cam chest you see the large upper gear, it has a mark that aligns it with a mark on the smaller crank pinion shaft gear, these are aligned when cams are installed so the events happen as they are designed in the cams profile in relation to the time the piston is doing its thing

    What JB did is change the key that is in a slot in the large gear from one that is straight to one that moves the gear +4 degrees. So when he slides that tab (key) into the slot on the cam it moves the alignment position relationship with the pinion (smaller gear below) on the crank.

    When this gear with the +4 key is put on the rear cam (both cams are driven in the back by gears or chains) this moves the time at which the cams are designed to move forward or +4 degrees in timing as it relates to the pinion, so when you change the key, install the gear you end up rotating (advancing) the cam position when you align the marks, so the cam event happen 4 degrees earlier than they did when installed straight up or as manufactured to happen.
  10. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Good Post HRK....
    JB...got my bike running right...so, if I can let the revs drop to 2500 in 5th I'll try some roll ons....see if I have what you're looking for LOL:devil:
  11. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    Great to hear Lucifer. I am always interested in how others bike are running and what they are running. Be careful with the break in period though. I am in no hurry for you to break your bike.

    HRK, thanks for the forensic explanation. :cool: I did think of having him check the ccp before all of this but I just dropped the ball in the end zone..:banghead: I understand your answer perfectly, but it still begs the question. Which is responsible for the gain? To me, the engine had made a big enough change with the +4 that it craved more to drink. So that is what we did. First we gave it too much, then we did a better job at monitoring. How many times have I heard it said that there are two basic ways to tune a bike. 1. For Fuel Economy. 2. For Power. Obviously we were after power here, so that is how we tuned.

    The guy who wrote that dipshiit response is assuming that there was a bad tune on my bike previously. That just is not the case, and I have charts to prove it. All of the dyno runs that I have done have been done by the same machine and the same operator. Is it really that likely that there is that much power gained just by a simple jet change? Oh, I forgot to add that all pulls that were made, they were done with one bald ass tire as well.:D I guess I just don't completely buy his claim...JMo
  12. hotroadking

    hotroadking Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, you changed the timing of the events and increased the ability of the cylinders to be filled to some extent, basically raising the pressure allows you to increase the power, which may require a bit more fuel, a bit earlier on as the events are happening sooner.

    The change shouldn't have been too drastic in fuel,

    BTW one of the byproducts of EFI is that you can have your power and economy
    combined due to mapping of cells, something that is difficult to do with a three stage fuel system in a carb.

    The dynamics changed and so the needs changed. Pretty much it.
  13. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    I tell ya what happend here as the valve timing changed so did the amount of fuel entering the cylinder . Started to go to the lean side so your tech saw it and added fuel. Peak horsepower came up and it pulled longer . And harder .the event has happend sooner . The torque value came up because of valve timing point and final.
  14. baggerpaul

    baggerpaul Well-Known Member

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    Did not see that hrk had posted the same thing sorry hrk!
  15. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    Here is another question. He has suggested in subsequent posts that the increase in ccp would have be only like 5 psi? Since we did not check the ccp, hard to argue with, but is that little bit of gain, if true, enough to yield the change that it did?
  16. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    LOL...I'm not in a hurry to break it either ...break it in yes... What I'm not in a hurry to give you is a report on how well the Commander II's handle in crappy weather LOL

    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
  17. JohnnyBiker

    JohnnyBiker Well-Known Member

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    I wish we had a popcorn icon like HTT.... I am real anxious to hear about those tires..:cool: How did everything go this morning? Not seeing an "OH FUG" post this morning???:D
  18. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Comon Man !


    [​IMG]
  19. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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    Well...........

    [​IMG]
  20. cardboard

    cardboard Well-Known Member

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